Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!
Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.
Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.
Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.
Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books, other works that take place in Sanderson’s cosmere (Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, etc.), and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.
Chapter 7
A Watcher at the Rim
I did not die.
I experienced something worse.
—From Oathbringer, preface
“Kaladin!” Lirin exclaimed, grabbing him by the shoulder. “What are you doing, son?”
Roshone sputtered on the ground, his nose bleeding. “Guards, take him! You hear me!”
Syl landed on Kaladin’s shoulder, hands on her hips. She tapped her foot. “He probably deserved that.”
The darkeyed guard scrambled to help Roshone to his feet while the captain leveled his sword at Kaladin. A third joined them, running in from another room.
Kaladin stepped one foot back, falling into a guard position.
“Well?” Roshone demanded, holding his handkerchief to his nose. “Strike him down!” Angerspren boiled up from the ground in pools.
“Please, no,” Kaladin’s mother cried, clinging to Lirin. “He’s just distraught. He—”
Kaladin held out a hand toward her, palm forward, in a quieting motion. “It’s all right, Mother. That was only payment for a little unsettled debt between Roshone and me.”
He met the eyes of the guards, each in turn, and they shuffled uncertainly. Roshone blustered. Unexpectedly, Kaladin felt in complete control of the situation—and… well, more than a little embarrassed.
Suddenly, the perspective of it crashed down on him. Since leaving Hearthstone, Kaladin had met true evil, and Roshone hardly compared. Hadn’t he sworn to protect even those he didn’t like? Wasn’t the whole point of what he had learned to keep him from doing things like this? He glanced at Syl, and she nodded to him.
Do better.
For a short time, it had been nice to just be Kal again. Fortunately, he wasn’t that youth any longer. He was a new person—and for the first time in a long, long while, he was happy with that person.
“Stand down, men,” Kaladin said to the soldiers. “I promise not to hit your brightlord again. I apologize for that; I was momentarily distracted by our previous history. Something he and I both need to forget. Tell me, what happened to the parshmen? Did they not attack the town?”
The soldiers shifted, glancing toward Roshone.
“I said stand down,” Kaladin snapped. “For storm’s sake, man. You’re holding that sword like you’re going to chop a stumpweight. And you? Rust on your cap? I know Amaram recruited most of the able-bodied men in the region, but I’ve seen messenger boys with more battle poise than you.”
The soldiers looked to one another. Then, red-faced, the lighteyed one slid his sword back into its sheath.
“What are you doing?” Roshone demanded. “Attack him!”
“Brightlord, sir,” the man said, eyes down. “I may not be the best soldier around, but… well, sir, trust me on this. We should just pretend that punch never happened.” The other two soldiers nodded their heads in agreement.
Roshone sized Kaladin up, dabbing at his nose, which wasn’t bleeding badly. “So, they did make something out of you in the army, did they?”
“You have no idea. We need to talk. Is there a room here that isn’t clogged full of people?”
“Kal,” Lirin said. “You’re speaking foolishness. Don’t give orders to Brightlord Roshone!”
Kaladin pushed past the soldiers and Roshone, walking farther down the hallway. “Well?” he barked. “Empty room?”
“Up the stairs, sir,” one of the soldiers said. “Library is empty.”
“Excellent.” Kaladin smiled to himself, noting the “sir.” “Join me up there, men.”
Kaladin started toward the stairs. Unfortunately, an authoritative bearing could only take a man so far. Nobody followed, not even his parents.
“I gave you people an order,” Kaladin said. “I’m not fond of repeating myself.”
“And what,” Roshone said, “makes you think you can order anyone around, boy?”
Kaladin turned back and swept his arm before him, summoning Syl. A bright, dew-covered Shardblade formed from mist into his hand. He spun the Blade and rammed her down into the floor in one smooth motion. He held the grip, feeling his eyes bleed to blue.
Everything grew still. Townspeople froze, gaping. Roshone’s eyes bulged. Curiously, Kaladin’s father just lowered his head and closed his eyes.
“Any other questions?” Kaladin asked.
“They were gone when we went back to check on them, um, Brightlord,” said Aric, the short guard with the rusty helm. “We’d locked the door, but the side was ripped clean open.”
“They didn’t attack a soul?” Kaladin asked.
“No, Brightlord.”
Kaladin paced through the library. The room was small, but neatly organized with rows of shelves and a fine reading stand. Each book was exactly flush with the others; either the maids were extremely meticulous, or the books were not often moved. Syl perched on one shelf, her back to a book, swinging her legs girlishly over the edge.
Roshone sat on one side of the room, periodically pushing both hands along his flushed cheeks toward the back of his head in an odd nervous gesture. His nose had stopped bleeding, though he’d have a nice bruise. That was a fraction of the punishment the man deserved, but Kaladin found he had no passion for abusing Roshone. He had to be better than that.
“What did the parshmen look like?” Kaladin asked of the guardsmen. “They changed, following the unusual storm?”
“Sure did,” Aric said. “I peeked when I heard them break out, after the storm passed. They looked like Voidbringers, I tell you, with big bony bits jutting from their skin.”
“They were taller,” the guard captain added. “Taller than me, easily as tall as you are, Brightlord. With legs thick as stumpweights and hands that could have strangled a whitespine, I tell you.”
“Then why didn’t they attack?” Kaladin asked. They could have easily taken the manor; instead, they’d run off into the night. It spoke of a more disturbing goal. Perhaps Hearthstone was too small to be bothered with.
“I don’t suppose you tracked their direction?” Kaladin said, looking toward the guards, then Roshone.
“Um, no, Brightlord,” the captain said. “Honestly, we were just worried about surviving.”
“Will you tell the king?” Aric asked. “That storm ripped away four of our silos. We’ll be starving afore too long, with all these refugees and no food. When the highstorms start coming again, we won’t have half as many homes as we need.”
“I’ll tell Elhokar.” But Stormfather, the rest of the kingdom would be just as bad.
He needed to focus on the Voidbringers. He couldn’t report back to Dalinar until he had the Stormlight to fly home, so for now it seemed his most useful task would be to find out where the enemy was gathering, if he could. What were the Voidbringers planning? Kaladin hadn’t experienced their strange powers himself, though he’d heard reports of the Battle of Narak. Parshendi with glowing eyes and lightning at their command, ruthless and terrible.
“I’ll need maps,” he said. “Maps of Alethkar, as detailed as you have, and some way to carry them through the rain without ruining them.” He grimaced. “And a horse. Several of them, the finest you have.”
“So you’re robbing me now?” Roshone asked softly, staring at the floor.
“Robbing?” Kaladin said. “We’ll call it renting instead.” He pulled a handful of spheres from his pocket and dropped them on the table. He glanced toward the soldiers. “Well? Maps? Surely Roshone keeps survey maps of the nearby areas.”
Roshone was not important enough to have stewardship over any of the highprince’s lands—a distinction Kaladin had never realized while he lived in Hearthstone. Those lands would be watched over by much more important lighteyes; Roshone would only be a first point of contact with surrounding villages.
“We’ll want to wait for the lady’s permission,” the guard captain said. “Sir.”
Kaladin raised an eyebrow. They’d disobey Roshone for him, but not the manor’s lady? “Go to the house ardents and tell them to prepare the things I request. Permission will be forthcoming. And locate a spanreed connected to Tashikk, if any of the ardents have one. Once I have the Stormlight to use it, I’ll want to send word to Dalinar.”
The guards saluted and left.
Kaladin folded his arms. “Roshone, I’m going to need to chase those parshmen and see if I can figure out what they’re up to. I don’t suppose any of your guards have tracking experience? Following the creatures would be hard enough without the rain swamping everything.”
“Why do they matter so much?” Roshone asked, still staring at the floor.
“Surely you’ve guessed,” Kaladin said, nodding to Syl as her ribbon of light flitted over to his shoulder. “Weather in turmoil and terrors transformed from common servants? That storm with the red lightning, blowing the wrong direction? The Desolation is here, Roshone. The Voidbringers have returned.”
Roshone groaned, leaning forward, arms wrapped around himself as if he were going to be sick.
“Syl?” Kaladin whispered. “I might need you again.” “You sound apologetic,” she replied, cocking her head.
“I am. I don’t like the idea of swinging you about, smashing you into things.”
She sniffed. “Firstly, I don’t smash into things. I am an elegant and graceful weapon, stupid. Secondly, why would you be bothered?”
“It doesn’t feel right,” Kaladin replied, still whispering. “You’re a woman, not a weapon.”
“Wait… so this is about me being a girl?”
“No,” Kaladin said immediately, then hesitated. “Maybe. It just feels strange.”
She sniffed. “You don’t ask your other weapons how they feel about being swung about.”
“My other weapons aren’t people.” He hesitated. “Are they?”
She looked at him with head cocked and eyebrows raised, as if he’d said something very stupid.
Everything has a spren. His mother had taught him that from an early age.
“So… some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked.
“Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”
“What? Why?”
She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.” She zipped out in front of him, changing into a field of mist. When he raised his hand, the Shardblade appeared.
He strode to where Roshone sat, then stooped down and held the Shardblade before the man, point toward the floor.
Roshone looked up, transfixed by the weapon’s blade, as Kaladin had anticipated. You couldn’t be near one of these things and not be drawn by it. They had a magnetism.
“How did you get it?” Roshone asked.
“Does it matter?”
He didn’t reply, but they both knew the truth. Owning a Shardblade was enough—if you could claim it, and not have it taken from you, it was yours. With one in his possession, the brands on his head were meaningless. No man, not even Roshone, would imply otherwise.
“You,” Kaladin said, “are a cheat, a rat, and a murderer. But as much as I hate it, we don’t have time to oust Alethkar’s ruling class and set up something better. We are under attack by an enemy we do not understand, and which we could not have anticipated. So you’re going to have to stand up and lead these people.”
Roshone stared at the blade, looking at his reflection.
“We’re not powerless,” Kaladin said. “We can and will fight back—but first we need to survive. The Everstorm will return. Regularly, though I don’t know the interval yet. I need you to prepare.”
“How?” Roshone whispered.
“Build homes with slopes in both directions. If there’s not time for that, find a sheltered location and hunker down. I can’t stay. This crisis is bigger than one town, one people, even if it’s my town and my people. I have to rely on you. Almighty preserve us, you’re all we have.”
Roshone slumped down farther in his seat. Great. Kaladin stood and dismissed Syl.
“We’ll do it,” a voice said from behind him.
Kaladin froze. Laral’s voice sent a shiver down his spine. He turned slowly, and found a woman who did not at all match the image in his head. When he’d last seen her, she’d been wearing a perfect lighteyed dress, beautiful and young, yet her pale green eyes had seemed hollow. She’d lost her betrothed, Roshone’s son, and had instead become engaged to the father—a man more than twice her age.
The woman he confronted was no longer a youth. Her face was firm, lean, and her hair was pulled back in a no-nonsense tail of black peppered with blonde. She wore boots and a utilitarian havah, damp from the rain.
She looked him up and down, then sniffed. “Looks like you went and grew up, Kal. I was sorry to hear the news of your brother. Come now. You need a spanreed? I’ve got one to the queen regent in Kholinar, but that one hasn’t been responsive lately. Fortunately, we do have one to Tashikk, as you asked about. If you think that the king will respond to you, we can go through an intermediary.”
She walked back out the doorway.
“Laral…” he said, following.
“I hear you stabbed my floor,” she noted. “That’s good hardwood, I’ll have you know. Honestly. Men and their weapons.”
“I dreamed of coming back,” Kaladin said, stopping in the hallway outside the library. “I imagined returning here a war hero and challenging Roshone. I wanted to save you, Laral.”
“Oh?” She turned back to him. “And what made you think I needed saving?”
“You can’t tell me,” Kaladin said softly, waving backward toward the library, “that you’ve been happy with that.”
“Becoming a lighteyes does not grant a man any measure of decorum, it appears,” Laral said. “You will stop insulting my husband, Kaladin. Shardbearer or not, another word like that, and I’ll have you thrown from my home.”
“Laral—”
“I am quite happy here. Or I was, until the winds started blowing the wrong direction.” She shook her head. “You take after your father. Always feeling like you need to save everyone, even those who would rather you mind your own business.”
“Roshone brutalized my family. He sent my brother to his death and did everything he could to destroy my father!”
“And your father spoke against my husband,” Laral said, “disparaging him in front of the other townspeople. How would you feel, as a new brightlord exiled far from home, only to find that the town’s most important citizen is openly critical of you?”
Her perspective was skewed, of course. Lirin had tried to befriend Roshone at first, hadn’t he? Still, Kaladin found little passion to continue the argument. What did he care? He intended to see his parents moved from this city anyway.
“I’ll go set up the spanreed,” she said. “It might take some time to get a reply. In the meantime, the ardents should be fetching your maps.”
“Great,” Kaladin said, pushing past her in the hallway. “I’m going to go speak with my parents.”
Syl zipped over his shoulder as he started down the steps. “So, that’s the girl you were going to marry.”
“No,” Kaladin whispered. “That’s a girl I was never going to marry, no matter what happened.”
“I like her.”
“You would.” He reached the bottom of the steps and looked back up. Roshone had joined Laral at the top of the stairs, carrying the gems Kaladin had left on the table. How much had that been?
Five or six ruby broams, he thought, and maybe a sapphire or two. He did the calculations in his head. Storms… That was a ridiculous sum— more money than the goblet full of spheres that Roshone and Kaladin’s father had spent years fighting over back in the day. That was now mere pocket change to Kaladin.
He’d always thought of all lighteyes as rich, but a minor brightlord in an insignificant town… well, Roshone was actually poor, just a different kind of poor.
Kaladin searched back through the house, passing people he’d once known—people who now whispered “Shardbearer” and got out of his way with alacrity. So be it. He’d accepted his place the moment he’d seized Syl from the air and spoken the Words.
Lirin was back in the parlor, working on the wounded again. Kaladin stopped in the doorway, then sighed and knelt beside Lirin. As the man reached toward his tray of tools, Kaladin picked it up and held it at the ready. His old position as his father’s surgery assistant. The new apprentice was helping with wounded in another room.
Lirin eyed Kaladin, then turned back to the patient, a young boy who had a bloodied bandage around his arm. “Scissors,” Lirin said.
Kaladin proffered them, and Lirin took the tool without looking, then carefully cut the bandage free. A jagged length of wood had speared the boy’s arm. He whimpered as Lirin palpated the flesh nearby, covered in dried blood. It didn’t look good.
“Cut out the shaft,” Kaladin said, “and the necrotic flesh. Cauterize.”
“A little extreme, don’t you think?” Lirin asked.
“Might want to remove it at the elbow anyway. That’s going to get infected for sure—look how dirty that wood is. It will leave splinters.”
The boy whimpered again. Lirin patted him. “You’ll be fine. I don’t see any rotspren yet, and so we’re not going to take the arm off. Let me talk to your parents. For now, chew on this.” He gave the boy some bark as a relaxant.
Together, Lirin and Kaladin moved on; the boy wasn’t in immediate danger, and Lirin would want to operate after the anesthetic took effect.
“You’ve hardened,” Lirin said to Kaladin as he inspected the next patient’s foot. “I was worried you’d never grow calluses.”
Kaladin didn’t reply. In truth, his calluses weren’t as deep as his father might have wanted.
“But you’ve also become one of them,” Lirin said.
“My eye color doesn’t change a thing.”
“I wasn’t speaking of your eye color, son. I don’t give two chips whether a man is lighteyed or not.” He waved a hand, and Kaladin passed him a rag to clean the toe, then started preparing a small splint.
“What you’ve become,” Lirin continued, “is a killer. You solve problems with the fist and the sword. I had hoped that you would find a place among the army’s surgeons.”
“I wasn’t given much choice,” Kaladin said, handing over the splint, then preparing some bandages to wrap the toe. “It’s a long story. I’ll tell you sometime.” The less soul-crushing parts of it, at least.
“I don’t suppose you’re going to stay.”
“No. I need to follow those parshmen.”
“More killing, then.”
“And you honestly think we shouldn’t fight the Voidbringers, Father?”
Lirin hesitated. “No,” he whispered. “I know that war is inevitable. I just didn’t want you to have to be a part of it. I’ve seen what it does to men. War flays their souls, and those are wounds I can’t heal.” He secured the splint, then turned to Kaladin. “We’re surgeons. Let others rend and break; we must not harm others.”
“No,” Kaladin said. “You’re a surgeon, Father, but I’m something else. A watcher at the rim.” Words spoken to Dalinar Kholin in a vision. Kaladin stood up. “I will protect those who need it. Today, that means hunting down some Voidbringers.”
Lirin looked away. “Very well. I am… glad you returned, son. I’m glad you’re safe.”
Kaladin rested his hand on his father’s shoulder. “Life before death, Father.”
“See your mother before you leave,” Lirin said. “She has something to show you.”
Kaladin frowned, but made his way out of the healing chamber to the kitchens. The entire place was lit only by candles, and not many of them. Everywhere he went, he saw shadows and uncertain light.
He filled his canteen with fresh water and found a small umbrella. He’d need that for reading maps in this rain. From there, he went hiking up to check on Laral in the library. Roshone had retreated to his room, but she was sitting at a writing table with a spanreed before her.
Wait. The spanreed was working. Its ruby glowed.
“Stormlight!” Kaladin said, pointing.
“Well, of course,” she said, frowning at him. “Fabrials require it.”
“How do you have infused spheres?”
“The highstorm,” Laral said. “Just a few days back.”
During the clash with the Voidbringers, the Stormfather had summoned an irregular highstorm to match the Everstorm. Kaladin had flown before its stormwall, fighting the Assassin in White.
“That storm was unexpected,” Kaladin said. “How in the world did you know to leave your spheres out?”
“Kal,” she said, “it’s not so hard to hang some spheres out once a storm starts blowing!”
“How many do you have?”
“Some,” Laral said. “The ardents have a few—I wasn’t the only one to think of it. Look, I’ve got someone in Tashikk willing to relay a message to Navani Kholin, the king’s mother. Wasn’t that what you implied you wanted? You really think she’ll respond to you?”
The answer, blessedly, came as the spanreed started writing. “ ‘Captain?’ ” Laral read. “ ‘This is Navani Kholin. Is it really you?’ ”
Laral blinked, then looked up at him.
“It is,” Kaladin said. “The last thing I did before leaving was speak with Dalinar at the top of the tower.” Hopefully that would be enough to authenticate him.
Laral jumped, then wrote it.
“ ‘Kaladin, this is Dalinar,’” Laral read as the message came back. “ ‘What is your status, soldier?’ ”
“Better than expected, sir,” Kaladin said. He outlined what he’d discovered, in brief. He ended by noting, “I’m worried that they left because Hearthstone wasn’t important enough to bother destroying. I’ve ordered horses and some maps. I figure I can do a little scouting and see what I can find about the enemy.”
“ ‘Careful,’ ” Dalinar responded. “ ‘You don’t have any Stormlight left?’ ”
“I might be able to find a little. I doubt it will be enough to get me home, but it will help.”
It took a few minutes before Dalinar replied, and Laral took the opportunity to change the paper on the spanreed board.
“ ‘Your instincts are good, Captain,’ ” Dalinar finally sent. “ ‘I feel blind in this tower. Get close enough to discover what the enemy is doing, but don’t take unnecessary risks. Take the spanreed. Send us a glyph each evening to know you are safe.’ ”
“Understood, sir. Life before death.”
“ ‘Life before death.’ ”
Laral looked to him, and he nodded that the conversation was over. She packed up the spanreed for him without a word, and he took it gratefully, then hurried out of the room and down the steps.
His activities had drawn quite a crowd of people, who had gathered in the small entry hall before the steps. He intended to ask if anyone had infused spheres, but was interrupted by the sight of his mother. She was speaking with several young girls, and held a toddler in her arms. What was she doing with…
Kaladin stopped at the foot of the steps. The little boy was perhaps a year old, chewing on his hand and babbling around his fingers.
“Kaladin, meet your brother,” Hesina said, turning toward him. “Some of the girls were watching him while I helped with the triage.”
“A brother,” Kaladin whispered. It had never occurred to him. His mother would be forty-one this year, and…
A brother.
Kaladin reached out. His mother let him take the little boy, hold him in hands that seemed too rough to be touching such soft skin. Kaladin trembled, then pulled the child tight against him. Memories of this place had not broken him, and seeing his parents had not overwhelmed him, but this…
He could not stop the tears. He felt like a fool. It wasn’t as if this changed anything—Bridge Four were his brothers now, as close to him as any blood relative.
And yet he wept.
“What’s his name?”
“Oroden.”
“Child of peace,” Kaladin whispered. “A good name. A very good name.”
Behind him, an ardent approached with a scroll case. Storms, was that Zeheb? Still alive, it seemed, though she’d always seemed older than the stones themselves. Kaladin handed little Oroden back to his mother, then wiped his eyes and took the scroll case.
People crowded at the edges of the room. He was quite the spectacle: the surgeon’s son turned slave turned Shardbearer. Hearthstone wouldn’t see this much excitement for another hundred years.
At least not if Kaladin had any say about it. He nodded to his father—who had stepped out of the parlor room—then turned to the crowd. “Does anyone here have infused spheres? I will trade you, two chips for one. Bring them forth.”
Syl buzzed around him as a collection was made, and Kaladin’s mother made the trades for him. What he ended up with was only a pouch’s worth, but it seemed vast riches. At the very least, he wasn’t going to need those horses any longer.
He tied the pouch closed, then looked over his shoulder as his father stepped up. Lirin took a small glowing diamond chip from his pocket, then handed it toward Kaladin.
Kaladin accepted it, then glanced at his mother and the little boy in her arms. His brother.
“I want to take you to safety,” he said to Lirin. “I need to leave now, but I’ll be back soon. To take you to—”
“No,” Lirin said.
“Faher, it’s the Desolation,” Kaladin said.
Nearby, people gasped softly, their eyes haunted. Storms; Kaladin should have done this in private. He leaned in toward Lirin. “I know of a place that is safe. For you, Mother. For little Oroden. Please don’t be stubborn, for once in your life.”
“You can take them, if they’ll go,” Lirin said. “But I’m staying here. Particularly if… what you just said is true. These people will need me.”
“We’ll see. I’ll return as soon as I can.” Kaladin set his jaw, then walked to the front door of the manor. He pulled it open, letting in the sounds of rain, the scents of a drowned land.
He paused, looked back at the room full of dirtied townspeople, homeless and frightened. They’d overheard him, but they’d known already. He’d heard them whispering. Voidbringers. The Desolation.
He couldn’t leave them like this.
“You heard correctly,” Kaladin said loudly to the hundred or so people gathered in the manor’s large entry hall—including Roshone and Laral, who stood on the steps up to the second floor. “The Voidbringers have returned.”
Murmurs. Fright.
Kaladin sucked in some of the Stormlight from his pouch. Pure, luminescent smoke began to rise from his skin, distinctly visible in the dim room. He Lashed himself upward so he rose into the air, then added a Lashing downward, leaving him to hover about two feet above the floor, glowing. Syl formed from mist as a Shardspear in his hand.
“Highprince Dalinar Kholin,” Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing before his lips, “has refounded the Knights Radiant. And this time, we will not fail you.”
The expressions in the room ranged from adoring to terrified. Kaladin found his father’s face. Lirin’s jaw had dropped. Hesina clutched her infant child in her arms, and her expression was one of pure delight, an awespren bursting around her head in a blue ring.
You I will protect, little one, Kaladin thought at the child. I will protect them all.
He nodded to his parents, then turned and Lashed himself outward, streaking away into the rain-soaked night. He’d stop at Stringken, about half a day’s walk—or a short flight—to the south and see if he could trade spheres there.
Then he’d hunt some Voidbringers.
Chapter 8
A Powerful Lie
That moment notwithstanding, I can honestly say this book has been brewing in me since my youth.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Shallan drew.
She scraped her drawing pad with agitated, bold streaks. She twisted the charcoal stick in her fingers every few lines, seeking the sharpest points to make the lines a deep black.
“Mmm…” Pattern said from near her calves, where he adorned her skirt like embroidery. “Shallan?”
She kept drawing, filling the page with black strokes.
“Shallan?” Pattern asked. “I understand why you hate me, Shallan. I did not mean to help you kill your mother, but it is what I did. It is what I did.…”
Shallan set her jaw and kept sketching. She sat outside at Urithiru, her back against a cold chunk of stone, her toes frigid, coldspren growing up like spikes around her. Her frazzled hair whipped past her face in a gust of air, and she had to pin the paper of her pad down with her thumbs, one trapped in her left sleeve.
“Shallan…” Pattern said.
“It’s all right,” Shallan said in a hushed voice as the wind died down. “Just… just let me draw.”
“Mmm…” Pattern said. “A powerful lie…”
A simple landscape; she should be able to draw a simple, calming landscape. She sat on the edge of one of the ten Oathgate platforms, which rose ten feet higher than the main plateau. Earlier in the day, she’d activated this Oathgate, bringing forth a few hundred more of the thousands who were waiting at Narak. That would be it for a while: each use of the device used an incredible amount of Stormlight. Even with the gemstones that the newcomers had brought, there wasn’t much to go around.
Plus, there wasn’t much of her to go around. Only an active, full Knight Radiant could work the control buildings at the center of each platform, initiating the swap. For now, that meant only Shallan.
It meant she had to summon her Blade each time. The Blade she’d used to kill her mother. A truth she’d spoken as an Ideal of her order of Radiants.
A truth that she could no longer, therefore, stuff into the back of her mind and forget.
Just draw.
The city dominated her view. It stretched impossibly high, and she struggled to contain the enormous tower on the page. Jasnah had searched this place out in the hope of finding books and records here of ancient date; so far, they hadn’t found anything like that. Instead, Shallan struggled to understand the tower.
If she locked it down into a sketch, would she finally be able to grasp its incredible size? She couldn’t get an angle from which to view the entire tower, so she kept fixating on the little things. The balconies, the shapes of the fields, the cavernous openings—maws to engulf, consume, overwhelm.
She ended up with a sketch not of the tower itself, but instead a criss-crossing of lines on a field of softer charcoal. She stared at the sketch, a windspren passing and troubling the pages. She sighed, dropping her charcoal into her satchel and getting out a damp rag to wipe her freehand fingers.
Down on the plateau, soldiers ran drills. The thought of them all living in that place disturbed Shallan. Which was stupid. It was just a building.
But it was one she couldn’t sketch.
“Shallan…” Pattern said.
“We’ll work it out,” she said, eyes forward. “It’s not your fault my parents are dead. You didn’t cause it.”
“You can hate me,” Pattern said. “I understand.”
Shallan closed her eyes. She didn’t want him to understand. She wanted him to convince her she was wrong. She needed to be wrong.
“I don’t hate you, Pattern,” Shallan said. “I hate the sword.”
“But—”
“The sword isn’t you. The sword is me, my father, the life we led, and the way it got twisted all about.”
“I…” Pattern hummed softly. “I don’t understand.”
I’d be shocked if you did, Shallan thought. Because I sure don’t. Fortunately, she had a distraction coming her way in the form of a scout climbing up the ramp to the platform where Shallan perched. The darkeyed woman wore white and blue, with trousers beneath a runner’s skirt, and had long, dark Alethi hair.
“Um, Brightness Radiant?” the scout asked after bowing. “The highprince has requested your presence.”
“Bother,” Shallan said, while inwardly relieved to have something to do. She handed the scout her sketchbook to hold while she packed up her satchel.
Dun spheres, she noted.
While three of the highprinces had joined Dalinar on his expedition to the center of the Shattered Plains, the greater number had remained behind. When the unexpected highstorm had come, Hatham had received word via spanreed from scouts out along the plains.
His warcamp had been able to get out most of their spheres for recharging before the storm hit, giving him a huge amount of Stormlight compared to the rest of them. He was becoming a wealthy man as Dalinar traded for infused spheres to work the Oathgate and bring in supplies.
Compared to that, providing spheres to her to practice her Lightweaving wasn’t a terrible expense—but she still felt guilty to see that she’d drained two of them by consuming Stormlight to help her with the chill air. She’d have to be careful about that.
She got everything packed, then reached back for the sketchbook and found the scout woman flipping through the pages with wide eyes. “Brightness…” she said. “These are amazing.”
Several were sketches as if looking up from the base of the tower, catching a vague sense of Urithiru’s stateliness, but more giving a sense of vertigo. With dissatisfaction, Shallan realized she’d enhanced the surreal nature of the sketches with impossible vanishing points and perspective.
“I’ve been trying to draw the tower,” Shallan said, “but I can’t get it from the right angle.” Maybe when Brightlord Brooding-Eyes returned, he could fly her to another peak along the mountain chain.
“I’ve never seen anything like these,” the scout said, flipping pages. “What do you call it?”
“Surrealism,” Shallan said, taking the large sketchbook back and tucking it under her arm. “It was an old artistic movement. I guess I defaulted to it when I couldn’t get the picture to look how I wanted. Hardly anyone bothers with it anymore except students.”
“It made my eyes make my brain think it forgot to wake up.”
Shallan gestured, and the scout led the way back down and across the plateau. Here, Shallan noticed that more than a few soldiers on the field had stopped their drills and were watching her. Bother. She would never again return to being just Shallan, the insignificant girl from a backwater town. She was now “Brightness Radiant,” ostensibly from the Order of Elsecallers. She’d persuaded Dalinar to pretend—in public, at least—that Shallan was from an order that couldn’t make illusions. She needed to keep that secret from spreading, or her effectiveness would be weakened.
The soldiers stared at her as if they expected her to grow Shardplate, shoot gouts of flame from her eyes, and fly off to tear down a mountain or two. Probably should try to act more composed, Shallan thought to herself. More… knightly?
She glanced at a soldier who wore the gold and red of Hatham’s army. He immediately looked down and rubbed at the glyphward prayer tied around his upper right arm. Dalinar was determined to recover the reputation of the Radiants, but storms, you couldn’t change an entire nation’s perspective in a matter of a few months. The ancient Knights Radiant had betrayed humankind; while many Alethi seemed willing to give the orders a fresh start, others weren’t so charitable.
Still, she tried to keep her head high, her back straight, and to walk more like her tutors had always instructed. Power was an illusion of perception, as Jasnah had said. The first step to being in control was to see yourself as capable of being in control.
The scout led her into the tower and up a flight of stairs, toward Dalinar’s secure section. “Brightness?” the woman asked as they walked. “Can I ask you a question?”
“As that was a question, apparently you can.”
“Oh, um. Huh.”
“It’s fine. What did you want to know?”
“You’re… a Radiant.”
“That one was actually a statement, and that’s making me doubt my previous assertion.”
“I’m sorry. I just… I’m curious, Brightness. How does it work? Being a Radiant? You have a Shardblade?”
So that was where this was going. “I assure you,” Shallan said, “it is quite possible to remain properly feminine while fulfilling my duties as a knight.”
“Oh,” the scout said. Oddly, she seemed disappointed by that response.
“Of course, Brightness.”
Urithiru seemed to have been crafted straight from the rock of a mountain, like a sculpture. Indeed, there weren’t seams at the corners of rooms, nor were there distinct bricks or blocks in the walls. Much of the stone exposed thin lines of strata. Beautiful lines of varied hue, like layers of cloth stacked in a merchant’s shop.
The corridors often twisted about in strange curves, rarely running straight toward an intersection. Dalinar suggested that perhaps this was to fool invaders, like a castle fortification. The sweeping turns and lack of seams made the corridors feel like tunnels.
Shallan didn’t need a guide—the strata that cut through the walls had distinctive patterns. Others seemed to have trouble telling those apart, and talked of painting the floors with guidelines. Couldn’t they distinguish the pattern here of wide reddish strata alternating with smaller yellow ones? Just go in the direction where the lines were sloping slightly upward, and you’d head toward Dalinar’s quarters.
They soon arrived, and the scout took up duty at the door in case her services were needed again. Shallan entered a room that only a day before had been empty, but was now arrayed with furniture, creating a large meeting place right outside Dalinar and Navani’s private rooms.
Adolin, Renarin, and Navani sat before Dalinar, who stood with hands on hips, contemplating a map of Roshar on the wall. Though the place was stuffed with rugs and plush furniture, the finery fit this bleak chamber like a lady’s havah fit a pig.
“I don’t know how to approach the Azish, Father,” Renarin was saying as she entered. “Their new emperor makes them unpredictable.”
“They’re Azish,” Adolin said, giving Shallan a wave with his unwounded hand. “How can they not be predictable? Doesn’t their government mandate how to peel your fruit?”
“That’s a stereotype,” Renarin said. He wore his Bridge Four uniform, but had a blanket over his shoulders and was holding a cup of steaming tea, though the room wasn’t particularly cold. “Yes, they have a large bureaucracy. A change in government is still going to cause upheaval. In fact, it might be easier for this new Azish emperor to change policy, since policy is well defined enough to change.”
“I wouldn’t worry about the Azish,” Navani said, tapping her notepad with a pen, then writing something in it. “They’ll listen to reason; they always do. What about Tukar and Emul? I wouldn’t be surprised if that war of theirs is enough to distract them even from the return of the Desolations.”
Dalinar grunted, rubbing his chin with one hand. “There’s that warlord in Tukar. What’s his name?”
“Tezim,” Navani said. “Claims he’s an aspect of the Almighty.”
Shallan sniffed as she slipped into the seat beside Adolin, setting her satchel and drawing pad on the floor. “Aspect of the Almighty? At least he’s humble.”
Dalinar turned toward her, then clasped his hands behind his back. Storms. He always seemed so… large. Bigger than any room he was in, brow perpetually furrowed by the deepest of thoughts. Dalinar Kholin could make choosing what to have for breakfast look like the most important decision in all of Roshar.
“Brightness Shallan,” he said. “Tell me, how would you deal with the Makabaki kingdoms? Now that the storm has come as we warned, we have an opportunity to approach them from a position of strength. Azir is the most important, but just faced a succession crisis. Emul and Tukar are, of course, at war, as Navani noted. We could certainly use Tashikk’s information networks, but they’re so isolationist. That leaves Yezier and Liafor. Perhaps the weight of their involvement would persuade their neighbors?”
He turned toward her expectantly.
“Yes, yes…” Shallan said, thoughtful. “I have heard of several of those places.”
Dalinar drew his lips to a line, and Pattern hummed in concern on her skirts. Dalinar did not seem the type of man you joked with.
“I’m sorry, Brightlord,” Shallan continued, leaning back in her chair. “But I’m confused as to why you want my input. I know of those kingdoms, of course—but my knowledge is an academic thing. I could probably name their primary export for you, but as to foreign policy… well, I’d never even spoken to someone from Alethkar before leaving my homeland. And we’re neighbors!”
“I see,” Dalinar said softly. “Does your spren offer some counsel? Could you bring him out to speak to us?”
“Pattern? He’s not particularly knowledgeable about our kind, which is sort of why he’s here in the first place.” She shifted in her seat. “And to be frank, Brightlord, I think he’s scared of you.”
“Well, he’s obviously not a fool,” Adolin noted.
Dalinar shot his son a glance.
“Don’t be like that, Father,” Adolin said. “If anyone would be able to go about intimidating forces of nature, it would be you.”
Dalinar sighed, turning and resting his hand on the map. Curiously, it was Renarin who stood up, setting aside his blanket and cup, then walked over to put his hand on his father’s shoulder. The youth looked even more spindly than normal when standing beside Dalinar, and though his hair wasn’t as blond as Adolin’s, it was still patched with yellow. He seemed such a strange contrast to Dalinar, cut from almost entirely different cloth.
“It’s just so big, son,” Dalinar said, looking at the map. “How can I unite all of Roshar when I’ve never even visited many of these kingdoms? Young Shallan spoke wisdom, though she might not have recognized it. We don’t know these people. Now I’m expected to be responsible for them? I wish I could see it all.…”
Shallan shifted in her seat, feeling as if she’d been forgotten. Perhaps he’d sent for her because he’d wanted to seek the aid of his Radiants, but the Kholin dynamic had always been a family one. In that, she was an intruder.
Dalinar turned and walked to fetch a cup of wine from a warmed pitcher near the door. As he passed Shallan, she felt something unusual. A leaping within her, as if part of her were being pulled by him.
He walked past again, holding a cup, and Shallan slipped from her seat, following him toward the map on the wall. She breathed in as she walked, drawing Stormlight from her satchel in a shimmering stream. It infused her, glowing from her skin.
She rested her freehand against the map. Stormlight poured off her, illuminating the map in a swirling tempest of Light. She didn’t exactly understand what she was doing, but she rarely did. Art wasn’t about understanding, but about knowing.
The Stormlight streamed off the map, passing between her and Dalinar in a rush, causing Navani to scramble off her seat and back away. The Light swirled in the chamber and became another, larger map—floating at about table height—in the center of the room. Mountains grew up like furrows in a piece of cloth pressed together. Vast plains shone green from vines and fields of grass. Barren stormward hillsides grew splendid shadows of life on the leeward sides. Stormfather… as she watched, the topography of the landscape became real.
Shallan’s breath caught. Had she done that? How? Her illusions usually required a previous drawing to imitate.
The map stretched to the sides of the room, shimmering at the edges. Adolin stood up from his seat, crashing through the middle of the illusion somewhere near Kharbranth. Wisps of Stormlight broke around him, but when he moved, the image swirled and neatly re-formed behind him.
“How…” Dalinar leaned down near their section, which detailed the Reshi Isles. “The detail is amazing. I can almost see the cities. What did you do?”
“I don’t know if I did anything,” Shallan said, stepping into the illusion, feeling the Stormlight swirl around her. Despite the detail, the perspective was still from very far away, and the mountains weren’t even as tall as one of her fingernails. “I couldn’t have created this, Brightlord. I don’t have the knowledge.”
“Well I didn’t do it,” Renarin said. “The Stormlight quite certainly came from you, Brightness.”
“Yes, well, your father was tugging on me at the time.”
“Tugging?” Adolin asked.
“The Stormfather,” Dalinar said. “This is his influence—this is what he sees each time a storm blows across Roshar. It wasn’t me or you, but us. Somehow.”
“Well,” Shallan noted, “you were complaining about not being able to take it all in.”
“How much Stormlight did this take?” Navani asked, rounding the outside of the new, vibrant map.
Shallan checked her satchel. “Um… all of it.”
“We’ll get you more,” Navani said with a sigh.
“I’m sorry for—”
“No,” Dalinar said. “Having my Radiants practice with their powers is among the most valuable resources I could purchase right now. Even if Hatham makes us pay through the nose for spheres.”
Dalinar strode through the image, disrupting it in a swirl around him. He stopped near the center, beside the location of Urithiru. He looked from one side of the room to the other in a long, slow survey.
“Ten cities,” he whispered. “Ten kingdoms. Ten Oathgates connecting them from long ago. This is how we fight it. This is how we begin. We don’t start by saving the world—we start with this simple step. We protect the cities with Oathgates.
“The Voidbringers are everywhere, but we can be more mobile. We can shore up capitals, deliver food or Soulcasters quickly between kingdoms. We can make those ten cities bastions of light and strength. But we must be quick. He’s coming. The man with nine shadows…”
“What’s this?” Shallan said, perking up.
“The enemy’s champion,” Dalinar said, eyes narrowing. “In the visions, Honor told me our best chance of survival involved forcing Odium to accept a contest of champions. I’ve seen the enemy’s champion—a creature in black armor, with red eyes. A parshman perhaps. It had nine shadows.”
Nearby, Renarin had turned toward his father, eyes wide, jaw dropping. Nobody else seemed to notice.
“Azimir, capital of Azir,” Dalinar said, stepping from Urithiru to the center of Azir to the west, “is home to an Oathgate. We need to open it and gain the trust of the Azish. They will be important to our cause.”
He stepped farther to the west. “There’s an Oathgate hidden in Shinovar. Another in the capital of Babatharnam, and a fourth in far-off Rall Elorim, City of Shadows.”
“Another in Rira,” Navani said, joining him. “Jasnah thought it was in Kurth. A sixth was lost in Aimia, the island that was destroyed.”
Dalinar grunted, then turned toward the map’s eastern section. “Jah Keved makes seven,” he said, stepping into Shallan’s homeland. “Thaylen City is eight. Then the Shattered Plains, which we hold.”
“And the last one is in Kholinar,” Adolin said softly. “Our home.”
Shallan approached and touched him on the arm. Spanreed communication into the city had stopped working. Nobody knew the status of Kholinar; their best clue had come via Kaladin’s spanreed message.
“We start small,” Dalinar said, “with a few of the most important to holding the world. Azir. Jah Keved. Thaylenah. We’ll contact other nations, but our focus is on these three powerhouses. Azir for its organization and political clout. Thaylenah for its shipping and naval prowess. Jah Keved for its manpower. Brightness Davar, any insight you could offer into your homeland—and its status following the civil war—would be appreciated.”
“And Kholinar?” Adolin asked.
A knock at the door interrupted Dalinar’s response. He called admittance, and the scout from before peeked in. “Brightlord,” she said, looking concerned. “There’s something you need to see.”
“What is it, Lyn?”
“Brightlord, sir. There’s… there’s been another murder.”
Chapter 9
The Threads of a Screw
The sum of my experiences has pointed at this moment. This decision.
—From Oathbringer, preface
One benefit of having become “Brightness Radiant” was that for once, Shallan was expected to be a part of important events.
Nobody questioned her presence during the rush through the corridors, lit by oil lanterns carried by guards. Nobody thought she was out of place; nobody even considered the propriety of leading a young woman to the scene of a brutal murder. What a welcome change.
From what she overheard the scout telling Dalinar, the corpse had been a lighteyed officer named Vedekar Perel. He was from Sebarial’s army, but Shallan didn’t know him. The body had been discovered by a scouting party in a remote part of the tower’s second level.
As they drew nearer, Dalinar and his guards jogged the rest of the distance, outpacing Shallan. Storming Alethi long legs. She tried to suck in some Stormlight—but she’d used it all on that blasted map, which had disintegrated into a puff of Light as they’d left.
That left her exhausted and annoyed. Ahead of her, Adolin stopped and looked back. He danced a moment, as if impatient, then hurried to her instead of running ahead.
“Thanks,” Shallan said as he fell into step beside her.
“It’s not like he can get more dead, eh?” he said, then chuckled awkwardly. Something about this had him seriously disturbed.
He reached for her hand with his hurt one, which was still splinted, then winced. She took his arm instead, and he held up his oil lantern as they hurried on. The strata here spiraled, twisting around the floor, ceiling, and walls like the threads of a screw. It was striking enough that Shallan took a Memory of it for later sketching.
Shallan and Adolin finally caught up to the others, passing a group of guards maintaining a perimeter. Though Bridge Four had discovered the body, they’d sent for Kholin reinforcements to secure the area.
They protected a medium-sized chamber now lit by a multitude of oil lamps. Shallan paused in the doorway right before a ledge that surrounded a wide square depression, perhaps four feet deep, cut into the stone floor of the room. The wall strata here continued their curving, twisting medley of oranges, reds, and browns—ballooning out across the sides of this chamber in wide bands before coiling back into narrow stripes to continue down the hall that led out the other side.
The dead man lay at the bottom of the cavity. Shallan steeled herself, but even so found the sight nauseating. He lay on his back, and had been stabbed right through the eye. His face was a bloody mess, his clothing disheveled from what looked to have been an extended fight.
Dalinar and Navani stood on the ledge above the pit. His face was stiff, a stone. She stood with her safehand raised to her lips.
“We found him just like this, Brightlord,” said Peet the bridgeman. “We sent for you immediately. Storm me if it doesn’t look exactly the same as what happened to Highprince Sadeas.”
“He’s even lying in the same position,” Navani said, grabbing her skirts and descending a set of steps into the lower area. It made up almost the entire room. In fact…
Shallan looked toward the upper reaches of the chamber, where several stone sculptures—like the heads of horses—extended from the walls with their mouths open. Spouts, she thought. This was a bathing chamber.
Navani knelt beside the body, away from the blood running toward a drain on the far side of the basin. “Remarkable… the positioning, the puncturing of the eye… It’s exactly like what happened to Sadeas. This has to be the same killer.”
Nobody tried to shelter Navani from the sight—as if it were completely proper for the king’s mother to be poking at a corpse. Who knew? Maybe in Alethkar, ladies were expected to do this sort of thing. It was still odd to Shallan how temerarious the Alethi were about towing their women into battle to act as scribes, runners, and scouts.
She looked to Adolin to get his read on the situation, and found him staring, aghast, mouth open and eyes wide. “Adolin?” Shallan asked. “Did you know him?”
He didn’t seem to hear her. “This is impossible,” he muttered. “Impossible.”
“Adolin?”
“I… No, I didn’t know him, Shallan. But I’d assumed… I mean, I figured the death of Sadeas was an isolated crime. You know how he was. Probably got himself into trouble. Any number of people could have wanted him dead, right?”
“Looks like it was something more than that,” Shallan said, folding her arms as Dalinar walked down the steps to join Navani, trailed by Peet, Lopen, and—remarkably—Rlain of Bridge Four. That one drew attention from the other soldiers, several of whom positioned themselves subtly to protect Dalinar from the Parshendi. They considered him a danger, regardless of which uniform he wore.
“Colot?” Dalinar said, looking toward the lighteyed captain who led the soldiers here. “You’re an archer, aren’t you? Fifth Battalion?”
“Yes, sir!”
“We have you scouting the tower with Bridge Four?” Dalinar asked.
“The Windrunners needed extra feet, sir, and access to more scouts and scribes for maps. My archers are mobile. Figured it was better than doing parade drills in the cold, so I volunteered my company.”
Dalinar grunted. “Fifth Battalion… who was your policing force?”
“Eighth Company,” Colot said. “Captain Tallan. Good friend of mine. He… didn’t make it, sir.”
“I’m sorry, Captain,” Dalinar said. “Would you and your men withdraw for a moment so I can consult with my son? Maintain that perimeter until I tell you otherwise, but do inform King Elhokar of this and send a messenger to Sebarial. I’ll visit and tell him about this in person, but he’d best get a warning.”
“Yes, sir,” the lanky archer said, calling orders. The soldiers left, including the bridgemen. As they moved, Shallan felt something prickle at the back of her neck. She shivered, and couldn’t help glancing over her shoulder, hating how this unfathomable building made her feel.
Renarin was standing right behind her. She jumped, letting out a pathetic squeak. Then she blushed furiously; she’d forgotten he was even with them. A few shamespren faded into view around her, floating white and red flower petals. She’d rarely attracted those, which was a wonder. She’d have thought they would take up permanent residence nearby.
“Sorry,” Renarin mumbled. “Didn’t mean to sneak up on you.”
Adolin walked down into the room’s basin, still looking distracted. Was he that upset by finding a murderer among them? People tried to kill him practically every day. Shallan grabbed the skirt of her havah and followed him down, staying clear of the blood.
“This is troubling,” Dalinar said. “We face a terrible threat that would wipe our kind from Roshar like leaves before the stormwall. I don’t have time to worry about a murderer slinking through these tunnels.” He looked up at Adolin. “Most of the men I’d have assigned to an investigation like this are dead. Niter, Malan… the King’s Guard is no better, and the bridgemen—for all their fine qualities—have no experience with this sort of thing. I’ll need to leave it to you, son.”
“Me?” Adolin said.
“You did well investigating the incident with the king’s saddle, even if that turned out to be something of a wind chase. Aladar is Highprince of Information. Go to him, explain what happened, and set one of his policing teams to investigate. Then work with them as my liaison.”
“You want me,” Adolin said, “to investigate who killed Sadeas.”
Dalinar nodded, squatting down beside the corpse, though Shallan had no idea what he expected to see. The fellow was very dead. “Perhaps if I put my son on the job, it will convince people I’m serious about finding the killer. Perhaps not—they might just think I’ve put someone in charge who can keep the secret. Storms, I miss Jasnah. She would have known how to spin this, to keep opinion from turning against us in court.
“Either way, son, stay on this. Make sure the remaining highprinces at least know that we consider these murders a priority, and that we are dedicated to finding the one who committed them.”
Adolin swallowed. “I understand.”
Shallan narrowed her eyes. What had gotten into him? She glanced toward Renarin, who still stood up above, on the walkway around the empty pool. He watched Adolin with unblinking sapphire eyes. He was always a little strange, but he seemed to know something she didn’t.
On her skirt, Pattern hummed softly.
Dalinar and Navani eventually left to speak with Sebarial. Once they were gone, Shallan seized Adolin by the arm. “What’s wrong?” she hissed. “You knew that dead man, didn’t you? Do you know who killed him?”
He looked her in the eyes. “I have no idea who did this, Shallan. But I am going to find out.”
She held his light blue eyes, weighing his gaze. Storms, what was she thinking? Adolin was a wonderful man, but he was about as deceitful as a newborn.
He stalked off, and Shallan hurried after him. Renarin remained in the room, looking down the hall after them until Shallan got far enough away that—over her shoulder—she could no longer see him.
Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC
sweet!
YES!!!
We’re on to Chapter 7. -Bill Belichick.
Thanks for the Birthday present! I really enjoy the chapter releases!
Haaah! From checking the last “can’t wait” comments at chapters 4-6 straight here! Countdown is over. Aaand we’ve got Kaladin :)
Yes, YES, YES!!!!
Ah ha! He does have a brother! Only read the first one so far, but can I say, that was AWESOME. Gotta run or I’ll be late, or I’d read the rest and say more, so adios amigos.
Think I wore out the refresh button waiting for this!
YES KALADIN! YES YES YES!
I told myself I Wouldn´t read this until the book is out, I wouldn’t do this to myself. I failed…
Chapter 7
Still looks like Jasnah to me. But I’m cautious because Brandon is withholding the author in the preface for a reason. Another thought, the preface isn’t necessarily written by the same author as the book Oathbringer. Although, I would think Brandon would use the term Foreword, if that was the case.
Lol, Syl. Those who thought she would be just fine with the punch were correct. Doesn’t mean it was any less immature. Syl isn’t exactly a paragon of maturity herself.
AAAAND YES! An actual moment of introspective maturity from Kaladin, where he realizes punching Roshone is beneath him.
BOOOM! Summon Shardblade, no more questions.
Seems dumb not to have given him one half of a paired spanreed with Urithiru for communication.
Its interesting that the two people with cause to hate Roshone the most now both have Shardblades. Kaladin should tell him about Moash so he doesn’t sleep so well, lol.
Well, at least they got the spanreed thing solved. Still, seems like they should have sent him with one.
Both a new apprentice and a new baby. I think the new apprentice probably doesn’t live in the house.
Great freaking chapter. Maybe my favorite chapter in the series so far.
Chapter 8
Time for some Shallan!
Ok, so the author of the preface is definitely the author of the entire book.
And now we know why Shallan has been so uncharacteristically quiet even though she’s been around. She is deeply wounded by remembering the truth regarding her parents. I grew up in… a bad family situation. Very bad. Not the worst I’ve seen, but bad enough. The one thing I always had, though, like Kaladin, was parents who loved me, unequivocally. Regardless of her relative wealth and security, what Shallan had to endure as a child… That’s as bad as it can get. I can’t even imagine the kind of pain she is currently in.
I’m now imagining the Oathgate network as sort of like the Bifrost in Thor. I wonder if that means we will get a Heimdall character to guard the Oathgate?
So, Renarin has also had visions of the champion, or at least, the Unmade.
Another murder, huh?
Chapter 9
Another knife to the eye? Curious. And Adolin obviously didn’t do it. So maybe someone killed this man in the same way in order to cast suspicion off of themselves an onto Sadeas’ murderer?
Shallan is going to figure out Adolin killed Sadeas in about two seconds if they actually talk to each other.
Two of my predictions and long-time theories have come true within those chapters:
1) Laral is NOT broken: just because she was dealt a bad card in life doesn’t mean she has to be either broken or on her way towards becoming a Radiant. I theorized a long time ago Laral would be the one in charge. She would subdue Roshone and she would find her strength. I predicted Kaladin would want to save her only to find out she needs no saving. I am really pleased to have been right.
2) Lirin and Hesina had another child. This too has been one of my theories. It was sweet to see it come true. It also opens the door for Lirin/Hesina/Oroden to make to Urithiru. Now I obviously believe the child will play a role into the second half of SA.
Now, my thoughts in no specific order:
3) I am pleased we got the conclusion on Kaladin’s homecoming and I am thrilled Brandon took the least popular path by having Kaladin man up, assume leadership and not hide his status for any longer than necessary. So many people have theorized Kaladin would be imprisoned, beaten, diminished, more depressed because nobody would believe him, because he wouldn’t want to tell the truth and all sorts of various reasons. I am GLAD the story didn’t take this turn: this is the Kaladin I love to read about. The assertive Kaladin, the one who acts like he knows what to do, even when he isn’t sure himself.
4) It was a rather quick paced chapter. I felt the story was being rushed forward, but I love the idea of Kaladin hunting Voidbrigners. And he has stormlight now.
5) Shallan is back. She doesn’t want to be right about her thoughts concerning her Blade. She isn’t done processing the information.
6) The servant girl is disappointed Shallan doesn’t seem to want to make use of her Shardblade.
7) Is there more to Hatham’s important role than having charged spheres?
8) Another jumpy reaction from Adolin, another outward expression of emotion when everyone was pleased to remain calmily seated. I feel Brandon is making a few things clear: Adolin is being very reactive to things, more so than most people he hangs up with. This is something some readers have noticed within the previous books, but I am surprised at how obvious Brandon is making it now.
9) Renarin is starting to show his colors: FINALLY. I liked what I read, I liked smart knowledgeable Renarin who offers counsel. I noticed how he was the one to stand next to his father. Foreshadowing of Adolin’s fall from grace? I felt Renarin was growing. It was fun to read.
10) Speaking of which, will anything befall Adolin for murdering Sadeas?
11) Another murder, identical and no, clearly, it wasn’t Adolin. What’s going on?
12) Shallan did notice Adolin’s being very disturbed. As always, Dalinar doesn’t even pay attention even if his reaction was quite… unexpected. Why would be bothered by a dead man? Why did he feel more secure going in there holding onto Shallan?
13) Another prediction from readers have come real today, not one of my owns though. Well, I don’t think it is one of my own, I can’t remember. Dalinar has appointed Adolin to investigate the murders. He wants this dealt with. Murder investigations tend to be boring, so let’s hope this one gets spiced up rather quickly.
14) Who killed the man and why? Why Sebrarial? And why making it seem as if it were the same killer? It has to be someone who saw how Sadeas was killed… Was it Ialai? Has she crafted a plan of some sorts?
15) Will someone try to stab a knife into Adolin’s eye?
16) OK. Renarin is being very creepy. He knows something. Readers predictions have often been Renarin would see through Adolin, would know the truth. This chapter seems to go into this direction.
17) Shallan is guilty of allowing her first impression cloud her judgement: she does not believe Adolin can potentially hide anything. She finds him too frank, too easy to read, too “simple-minded” perhaps? Oh how is she wrong… Adolin can hide a great deal lot of things, mainly things which bothers him. She won’t be the one to pierce his secret.
18) This is the second time Brandon takes the time to mention Adolin’s broken wrist and how painful it is. This has to be deliberate: Brandon never wastes words. First, he had Adolin think of his injured hand within his short POV. This could pass as the author wanting the readers to remember it. But twice? He didn’t have to write Adolin trying to hold Shallan hand with the wrong hand and wince. But he did. My thoughts are Brandon wants to emphasis it. My other thoughts are Adolin will be forced to fight with his injured hand: it won’t go well. Brandon wants to make it known Adolin has an fightinh incapacitating injury and it pains him. Also, I am no expert on broken bones, but it has been almost two weeks: it shouldn’t hurt. Pain after fractures does not last long, not when they are set right and healing right. Either Brandon does not know this (doubtful the information is very easy to find) or Adolin’s hand is not healing right. He disturbed it by stabbing Sadeas and now it has gotten worst. Just a few thoughts to keep in mind…
19) Alright Dalinar. Are you so set on your personal imagery of perfect steadfast Adolin you are unable to notice how uncharacteristic it is for him to say an uncertain “Me?”. I swear, it could have been Renarin who said it, but not Adolin. Not, “Beaver is Always Ready” Adolin, not “Yes Sir” Adolin, not “Boy-Scout Adolin”. Adolin never ever responds this way.
This is it for now, more is likely to come to mind.
Oh no Renarinnn. This is very worrying.
@11
The listeners have four genders: femalen, malen, female, and male. Non-mateforms are the former two, mateforms are the latter.
gosh darn how long do I have to wait to find out what renarin knows??? also I’m literally in my school library crying right now because of kaladin’s chapter goddammit sanderson
I know.
Ialai ordered the murder. She knows. Or she suspects. Torol’s former plans were to goat Adolin, to bring him to the edge of the cliff and to push him into it. He thought of using Adolin to harm Dalinar, to discredit Dalinar, somehow.
Ialai is going for the same plan and she has suspicions. Maybe Adolin left a clue onto the body. Maybe she found the mark onto the wall, but she just knows.
The second murder is her trying to snare him, to cause him to react, to force him to admit guilt or to be be found. She does not believe he can keep it up long, not when he is disrupted, so she is dirupting him by murdering men, allies of Dalinar to boot it all (now we know there will be others, I am convinced), making it look as if it were the SAME KILLER.
Dalinar is a predictable man. Him appointing Adolin was predictable. Ialai is smart. She knew this. Or guessed. Right.
When Adolin cracks down and tells the truth: she will pin the other murders on him. She knows he might get away murdering Sadeas, because of their history, but if people believe Adolin killed other people too, then nobody will be able to protect him, not even Dalinar.
Renarin knows something, does he think the Champion is Adolin? He has been wrong before, but will he think Adolin murdered the other men too? Will he be the one to argue against his brother, thinking it needs to be done? Will Renarin betray the brother/brother friendship he had with Adolin?
So was the apprentice just busy or was she avoiding Kaladin?
Also Brandon veryyy clearly showing Renarin’s creepiness is interesting. Hope Jasnah arrives soon. I wonder how knowledgeable she is on the Unmade? Do we know how much Rlain knows about the unmade/his gods?
And Dalinar may be a great leader but needs to work on his powers of observation. His boys are having some pretty strong reactions to things they probably shouldn’t have…
Home Run Again! I absolutely loved the Kaladin Chapter. I really enjoyed seeing his character growth, and I really hope to see his relationship with his father get all worked out.
Gepeto: this, “I am thrilled Brandon took the least popular path by having Kaladin man up…” I don’t think this was a “least popular path” and in the end it really doesn’t matter. Brandon Sanderson is the author and is not beholden to you or I to write exactly what we want. I think we ought to let the man write his book, and enjoy the ride wherever it goes, not constantly judge him (good or bad) because he choose to do what we thought he ought to.
Chapters 8-9: I really want to see into Renarin’s head. It seems like he knows or at least senses Adolin killed Sadeas. I love the line, “You want me,” Adolin said, “to investigate who killed Sadeas.” It just so fitting and fun to read.
What is with the prickle on Shallan’s neck, with Renarin suddenly appearing right beside her. I really like Renarin. It will be interesting to see where his character goes.
Lastly, this caught my attention: “On her skirt, Pattern hummed softly.” this was a standalone paragraph right after Adolin said, “I understand” and accepted Dalinar’s assignment to find the killer with Renarin staring at him. Pattern loves lies, and I think that this cover up must be really juicy to him and making him hum:)
OH Lastly Lastly (I mean it this time): I think the, “it wasn’t you and it wasn’t me, but rather us” line opens up all sorts of cool possibilities with various orders interacting with other orders. Does each order have a unique ability when paired with another order? I believe that would be a total of 45 different possible combinations.
I am so happy to just be along for the ride. Hi, Joe Buck!
Finally, Renarin’s eye color was canonize: they are sapphire blue, not light blue like Adolin’s, but sapphire. What color were Dalinar’s again?
I think Renarin will think Adolin will become the Champion. And he will make a mistake.
3 more fun chapters! Need to reread before extensive commenting but I am curious what folks will say about the authorship of the epigraphs now. (Also, Renarin is acting rather mysterious, isn’t he? )
I love that all 3 chapters of Kaladin’s homecoming were back to back and not teased out. And like others have said already I loved how the situation was resolved here. Immature and whiny Kaladin is just not fun to read (however realistic). I also really liked what they did with Laras and loved the scouts description of Surealism
Love, love love! These chapters are, as usual, amazing!
First, the epigraphs – still no clue as to the author, however I believe it is Jasnah as so far she is the only one who makes sense (to me, at least) until proven otherwise. It’s so tantalizing getting little bits and pieces at a time!
Otherwise, I don’t have many remarks to add at this time, but I DO think that the prickle Shallan feels on the back of her neck may have something to do with Glys. Or, it is just something similar to the Life Sense that those with Breath on Nalthis get.
“If anyone would be able to go about intimidating forces of nature, it would be you.” What a hilarious response to the Blackthorn.
Using the Ideals as a sign-off gives me feels.
@16 Almost certainly Ialai. And I agree the point is to tie Sadeas’ murderer to killings that will actually get him punished. Though if she doesn’t suspect Alodin, she’ll probably screw up on the timing. Does Adolin have a solid alibi for this murder? He was in a meeting when the body was discovered but where was he at time of death?
I get that part of the reason Stormlight is so sparse is because it was during the weeping and lots of spheres did not get outside for the unexpected highstorm but it seems like Kaladin went with lots of gems. It seems to me that previous Radiants had ample stormlight for policing and other tasks. I would also imagine that a the stuff they do with their armor could potentially use a lot of stormlight too.
Are there that many gems that are dun right now that there will be plenty when the highstorms become regular again? Also since Urithiru is above the highstorms will passing highstorms be able to fill gems there? It seems like that would make Urithiru a poor place to base your operations if you can’t fill your gems. What if you ran out of stormlight and got stuck. I’d imagine Urithiru has some means to get gems into highstorms, either that or there is another way to charge gems than to put them into highstorms…
Another thought I had is if those portals use so much energy it seems like it would be prudent to find some way to charge them rather than rely on the gems that you leave in the highstorm. They are fabrials so they have gems. Couldn’t you find a way to open up the sides or something and charge up the gems during a highstorm?
I think we should cut Dalinar a break. In the first scene, he misses Renarin’s reaction because he’s looking gat a map, and facing Shallan. There’s no way for him to see Renarin’s reaction. Shallan does, because she’s facing them.
And again, in the second scene, Dalinar is facing a dead body, on the ground, examining it, or watching Navani do it. Shallan notices Adolin’s reactions, because she’s attached to his arm, she’s not involved in the discussion, and she’s looking for it.
@26:
It was noted by Kaladin that he was not as efficient with Stormlight as Szeth seemed to be. So I assume he will get better. Also, it was stated that Szeth was not really efficient either, because of the way Honor blades work. So, Kaladin is actually REALLY BAD with his stormlight usage.
Dalinar noted that there were baskets in Urithiru to lower gems into the storm. They tried to do it during the Everstorm, but the gems didn’t infuse.
The fabrial gems are only one part of the equation. The other part is the amount of Stormlight the Radiant needs to infuse in order to open the Gate and bring people through. That’s the part that fluctuates based on how large the group being transported is, I think.
I was going to make a comment like Gepeto about Ialai behind the 2nd murder. It fits her.
The way its organized is a message/threat to Sadeas’ killer Adolin.
The 2nd murder is to draw out the first.
@18 “it wasn’t you and it wasn’t me, but rather us” I just figure that that is a bondsmith thing. Dalinar unites it could be that a bondsmith is able to help multiple Radiants to use their powers together although in this case the only thing that apparently got transferred was a need and some knowledge. The power was still Shallan’s but it was aided by Dalinar’s need and knowledge. Perhaps Dalinar will just be able to influence the capability of others he is around. Honestly it made me think of ta’veren from the Wheel of Time.
@26 in wor it talks about winches to lower gems down to the storms. Also it discusses how the more oaths a radiant speaks the better they can stor stormlight and the more efficiently they can use it therefore they would need less to do more
Let me start by saying – shame on you TOR! 10 minutes late with the publication! :P Do better next time ;)
Now off to the new chapters – I loved the Kaladin story although it felt a little bit rushed. I was expecting it to take more than one chapter and I really thought Kaladin would lead all of the townspeople to Kholinar, activate the Oathgate there and take them all to Urithiru. I really hoped for at least one fight with voidbringers around Hearthstone. Maybe it is yet to come….. The scene where Kaladin shows everyone he is a Knight Radiant – that was great! Almost had goosebumps :D
Shallan and her “interactive map” – did not expect that at all. That was a brilliant idea. And it also showed how powers of two orders can be combined to create something extraordinary! It’s the first time I looked at the Radiant Orders as one entity! Before that I had this view of them as being individual closed off groups, very protective of their integrity, power and status that work together only because they had to. I wonder what other unexpected things will “Brandenson” ;) introduce in the next chapters/books regarding cross-Order Stormlight-applications.
The second murder – my bet is on the Ghostbloods. They wanted to send Adolin a message that they know what he did. They are planning to blackmail him and use him to further their agenda.
Now I’m off to a second read :)
@32 If so, will the Ghostbloods use Veil to send the message?
@18: I don’t understand why my review disturbed you so much. I do not feel nor think stating I, as a reader, am pleased the author chose one avenue over other plausible ones is out of place.
@27: Dalinar is looking straight at Adolin when he asks him to investigate the murders. Adolin says a very uncharacteristic Me? which is exactly the kind of response we expect out of Renarin, not Adolin. Shallan notes, during the same exchange, something is off, but she cannot conceive Adolin is able to have secrets. She thinks him too simple, too one-layered, not complex enough to be deceitful. And she is wrong.
Dalinar misses it. He is looking right at Adolin and he misses how uncomfortable he is.
@17 mentioned Apprentice avoiding Kaladin. Wonder if she might be the baby’s mama?
@28 I suppose as they get better at using their powers but I kind of figured that a lash took a certain amount of energy. This thought comes as Kaladin doesn’t make lashes of specific strength but rather uses multiple lashes to change speed and direction. I just figured that Szeth’s honorblade just took more per lashing. I guess Adhesion works differently as the amount of stormlight used changes the duration of the adhesion.
Why would Kaladin need to do multiple lashes in one direction if he could just do one really powerful one. And if you are just falling in one direction what could he do differently that would allow him to save stormlight except maybe find a more direct path.
I guess I missed the part about the baskets. I guess they just didn’t find them in time to catch the highstorm as it went passed Urithiru.
It still seems like they should be able to do something to make the gates more efficient as those gates are really impractical…unless Elsecallers or Willshapers can use them more efficiently or perhaps they weren’t really meant to be used all that much.
Perhaps I’m just not catching the scope of how many more gems they might have once they get them all infused.
Sooo satisfying!
I’m wondering if Shallan was feeling Renarin’s power? When he creeped up on her. Wasn’t the speculation that he is a Truthwatcher? The name sort of implies that he can see the truth of things and he would probably need to use his powers for that. How ever they work. He ended up peeping Adolin with apparent intensity. I’m just throwing stuff out there.
“Brightlord Brooding-Eyes”
Love it. Shallan’s attitude to Kaladin is straight out of a terrible romantic comedy.
Can we just rename today Torture Tuesday? LOVED Kaladin chapter. 3D map of Roshar was iretty cool too. Wondering if Kalafun will meet up with Jasnah while trekking around. Can’t wait for next Tuesday!!!!!
@30 Vandar: That is a great point about maybe it being a bondsmiths ability. We really have very little insight (if any) into what a Bondsmith can do. I think it is very plausible that Bondsmith’s can perhaps enhance other radiants. Isn’t there a metal in Mistborn that allows a user to enhance other mistings. The “external” match to the “internal” metal that allows a Mistborn to burn up all of the metals they are currently burning in one magnificent and super strong burn. (Did any of that make sense? Me and putting words together, let’s just say I’m no Brandon…:))
@36 Vandar (again). Other than possibly becoming more efficient magically at holding stormlight, I think Kaladin could learn to “ride the winds” so to speak more efficiently. For example, it would most likely be more efficient to lash yourself to a 45 degree azimuth for a little while and then stop using stormlight and allow gravity and momentum to carry you forward, then do it again as opposed to just constantly lashing yourself completely parallel to the surface of the planet.
Why did Renarin jump at the mention of the champion with 9 shadows? And why does he sneak around and fade into shadows? I assume we will know more and more about his class of Radiant, but what if he becomes that champion because he can convince himself that the humans are in the right?
@40 Would the loss of forward momentum be worth the period you turned it off?…maybe, maybe not but following wind currents and things like that could make a difference.
@various re: Renarin. I agree with those who think he is seeing more than Adolin thinks. At least, my initial reaction when reading these chapters was…”he knows”.
Other reactions: good to see Kaladin learning AND being schooled
1. He figured out he shouldn’t just punch people…even those he hates
2. He’s learning to see Roshone, Laral, and his town from another point of view (from ‘on high’)
3. Laral is showing him that because a marriage that wasn’t her plan or something looked forward to can be a good one, and that she doesn’t need saving (this seems like the marriage Thom Merrilin described to Matt in The Shadow Rising (I think) about saving the woman from the bookmaker,
4. The part about some things having four genders…wow…
5. And that Syl doesn’t see being a weapon and being used as one as degrading
Apart from those things, I loved the Light mapping thing. Would love to see that drawn out or CGI’d on the big screen someday
Urithiru sounds more and more fascinating. The striations in the stone sounds similar to the Badlands. The idea of a giant tower city carved from a multi-colored mountain of stripes and spirals sounds beautiful. I hope we get some of Shallan’s drawings in the book.
When Kaladin stepped back from punching Roshone, and looked at the other soldiers and told them to stand down, I was reminded of an alpha cat establishing its territory. The other soldiers responded to this immediately, even before he summoned his shardblade. This whole chapter was incredible. I was not expecting him to announce the desolation and his radiantness so quickly. And Hesina’s reaction with awespren was wonderful!
Like others, I also thought the second murder was a response from Ialai or someone in Sadas’ camp to draw out the murderer. I’m not sure if they know it’s Adolin, but it would cast more suspicion and doubt, and perhaps frame multiple murders on the person who killed Sadeas. Adolin is in such a hard spot now. It seems like Renarin, and perhaps Pattern are onto him, which complicates matters a lot. I look forward to seeing how he handles it.
Thoughts, in no particular order:
– Renarin has at least seen Odium’s champion, but possibly wasn’t sure it was real. He got confirmation from Dalinar.
– Looks like about 3/4 of you were right: Kaladin has a second sibling. Wonder if he’s gonna be a player in the back 5.
– Shallan probably KNOWS that Adolin killed Sadeas. She doesn’t come to the conclusion on thw page, but I’m sure she knows. She’s going to give him a chance to spill it, though.
– Adolin didn’t kill Corpse #2. I think there was a witness to his murder of Sadeas, who did the second one. Now, thanks to Navani “helping”, whoever goes down for Sadeas goes down for this, too. An innocent person is accused, no matter what. Adolin will go down as a serial killer. Probably will be what “breaks” him.
long time snooper, first time chatting
Love the Kaladin chapters and the interaction with his old life. Glad the way he handled Roshone.
i also like the way he is using the Raidents words with talking with folks and signing off.
i hope the stormlight issue goes away. I know it’s the weeping but it seems to be a bigger issue than the past. When Kaladin said the second words he exploded with stormlight. Also, I mean can’t Delniar just ask the Strom father to infuse the spears or say. Hey, we need another storm to power up….
Surrealism and this quote stuck out to me. Not sure if surrealism was meation before. “It made my eyes make my brain think it forgot to wake up.”
I’m in desperate need of a POV for Renarin. What is going on? I keep jumping back in forth if he is good or not. Sanderson is not disappointing.
OK, I’ve only read the first section (everything before the first divider line in Chapter 7), but I had to come down to comment that I love how so much in that section was almost like a direct answer to last week’s comments. Syl’s reaction, the realization that he needed to do better, the authoritative commands after demonstrating his new rank, etc. OK, back to reading!
Such a great payoff at the end of Ch 7. Kaladin’s homecoming ends with him giving an uplifting speech to his family and village (while floating, no less) then flying off to save the day.
Also, did Shallan’s powers in Ch 8 remind anyone else of the imager in Reckoners? :)
Great chapters thought he pacing feels really rushed compared to other books! And man renarin feels super creepy right now
@46: There were no witnesses to Adolin murdering Sadeas: we have WoB confirmation nobody knows it was him. I am however making the educated guess Ialai has reasoned out he may be the culprit, so she’s fishing. It maybe she isn’t sure, either way, she hopes to snare Adolin. It was she and Torol’s plan. She is keeping on with it.
I now think what will break Adolin is, once he admits his guilt for Sadeas, he gets accused for the other murders as well. When he argues it wasn’t him, his family refuses to believe him. Dalinar, Navani, Renarin: they do not believe he tells the truth. Ultimately, only Kaladin will believe him.
Makes me think of the plot from movie Gossip, from the early 2000 years. I don’t recall the details, but a boy rapes a drunk girl and in order to get him to admit he did it, they snared him for murder. He breaks down in tears and admits he raped the girl, but did not kill anyone. I see the snare working in similar ways here. So if Brandon walks the same path as the movie, clues pointing towards Adolin will be left at one of the murder scenes. He will get blamed which is likely to get him to confess having killed Sadeas, but not the others.
On Shallan knowing: She does not know. I thought her viewpoint made it rather clear she does not even suspect it. Just like Dalinar, she isn’t going to look for what she thinks is impossible to be there. Nobody thinks Adolin may have a secret, nobody thinks Adolin could not be steady: he is his best disguise. They are never going to suspect him until he is found out.
@18 There are indeed 45 different combinations of 2 orders, but for each combination, each Radiant would have their own new ability, so there should be 90 special effects through combining order powers. This does however assume that only pairs of Radiants can cause special effects to their abilities, and each combination only affects one surge.
Woooo!! TWO Shallan chapters, and we get to see the fallout from Kaladin’s punch! I think every book should be published like this, it’s like a tv show or something. And I pay so much more attention during the first read through, since there aren’t really many chapters I can rush ahead to read. Thank you Tor!!
I’m really loving Brandon’s portrayal of where the characters who went through something major at the end of the last book are now. Adolin seemed about ready to put Sadeas’ murder behind him, but it’s not going to be that easy, and I’m excited to see where this mess takes his character.
I’m so glad that Kaladin is finally stepping up and getting over his cycles of depression from the last two books, but I like that it’s not totally gone. In his first chapter, he was obviously still struggling with letting go of his guilt, and I think that’s actually really realistic. But then he realized he had things to do and moved into action. I also loved the punch last week, and that Syl saw no problem with it. But I think it’s great that Kaladin is upset with himself for it, not because it was unjustified, or against his oaths, but just because he wants to be a better man, and not only when it’s absolutely essential. My little baby is all growing up!
Glad to finally get Shallan POVs this week, and again, it’s obvious she’s going to need time to deal with her truth from the end of the last book, and I’m interested to see the conflict that will bring, but also glad it didn’t totally break her, and she’s still being sarcastic and snarky as ever. Also loved her majorly channeling Jasnah with that scout!
Kaladin’s whole scene was great. Laral was badass and awesome, I really like that she called Kaladin out for his savior complex (even when he means well). He has a baby bro! I know last week some people were wondering if he’d deal well with it, and I like that his parents didn’t even consider he’d be upset, just casually were like “oh here’s your brother,” and his reaction was just perfect. Also his exit lol -for all he acts the stoic soldier, Kaladin really does have a flair for the dramatic.
Pattern being scared of Dalinar is hilarious -I want them to interact. The giant map was awesome! I can’t wait to see what other teaming up effects they can pull off, and if there are other orders that can combine powers.
A second murder! So creepy. I have a feeling it’s Ialai, well, on her orders. I don’t think anyone suspects Adolin yet, but I think she’s hoping to 1. draw out Sadeas’ murderer by freaking them out (which, if Adolin doesn’t get his act together, she might be successful at) and/or 2. bring focus back into the search for the killer. She knows that no one is really upset at his death, and so probably won’t look very carefully into finding who did it, but if they think there’s a killer with other motives who is going through multiple camps, the highprinces will be more likely to act.
Final thought, and totally random, I liked when Shallan thinks “Adolin was a wonderful man, but he was about as deceitful as a newborn” that she used “but.” Haha like the inability to be deceitful is the one downside of his wonderfulness. I love how Brandon sticks in these little nods towards their different orders, and the things they value.
I couldn’t help comparing Kaladin in these chapters to Rand from Wheel of Time.
Hah guess my last comment got modded. I’ll try to be nicer this time.
@38 Yes! Shalladin for the win!
@45 I think Renarin has seen the same vision as well.
@49 Do you mean the one Tia uses?
@51 There seems to be no evidence for many of your statements. Where do you get them from?
Kaladin is proving to be extremely engaging so far; he had some really epic scenes in WoR, but overall he was too broody and acted too teenager-ish (which, I mean, I guess he is, but still, it was obnoxious). I also love that Dalinar isolated Azir as a point of interest to focus upon. I’m really hoping to see more of Lift in this book.
Man – as much as he loves situational irony I should have seen Aldolin being appointed to head the hunt for the murder. Nice. And his response line was so perfect I could just see him putting the other words in his head “You want me – the person who killed Sadeas – to investigate the murder of Sadeas”. So well done.
Like everyone else loved the Kaladin chapters seeing him grow and realize some people who deserve punching are just not worth the time was nice.
One thought I had – we have more evidence that humans are not native to this planet and I wonder if we are moving into science fiction rather than fantasy somehow now (though yes the lines are always not defined between these). Calling surrealism “Old” was interesting – as it is certainly a young school in our world (I did like the no one bothers with it any more though as someone who doesn’t like surrealism) and the four genders – which someone else mentioned must mean the listeners. So the oldest spreen don’t come from humans hence humans were not always here. Interesting interesting. Man wait to next week is going to be so long!
@51 I’m more inclined to think politics will be a bigger problem for Adolin than family issues. Assuming Ialai doesn’t stop there, there will be no conceivable motive for Adolin to murder the random victims. For that matter, most people will probably recognize it’s fairly unlikely that Adolin killed anyone besides Sadeas but for politics the appearance of guilt matters more than being able to prove it.
Ialai may also have gone off the deep end and she’s just killing people to make sure than Sadeas’ murder isn’t ignored by Dalinar’s regime. Bujold had someone do a similar trick in Diplomatic Immunity though without adding to the body count. It’s also a lot easier plot than trying to plan murders for when the main suspects all don’t have alibis.
So comment 29 from 4-6 was correct. Who’da thunk it.
I love it when Kaladin and Syl are adorable. Kaladin being worried about using Syl to hit things is understandable but also very sweet.
Old Spren having four genders is really interesting. I wonder who or what determined the shape of spren before humans came.
It’s interesting seeing Dalinar from Shallan’s perspective. Most of the pov characters who interact with him aren’t intimidated by him, and I know he’s well meaning and trying his best to keep his people alive, so I keep forgetting that he’s basically a usurper and also a scary guy. It’s good to be reminded of that. I also find it pretty funny that Shallan does notice how intimidating he is, but just carries on being Shallan.
I’m very curious about why Shallan is so wigged out by Renarin. It could just be a personality thing, but maybe not. Anyone have ideas?
I feel a bit sorry for Adolin, but only a bit, because he did kind of bring this on himself, and also I get the feeling this is going to be fun :)
Author speculation: I’m going to take a wild guess and say it’s Renarin. If there’s a male character who isn’t an ardent and who knows how to read and write, it’s Renarin. He can sometimes see the future and the author had expected to die, he probably spent a lot of time with Jasnah since they were both scholarly and probably learnt some heretical views even if he didn’t abondon religion entirely, one of the excerpts refers specifically to women reading them which is what is expected but it’s also a reminder of the usual practice and could be intended to throw people off, and also: –
“I’m certain some will feel threatened by this record. Some few may feel liberated. Most will simply feel that it should not exist.
This could easily refer to a written work by a man (non-glyphs)
@16 @25 – I think everyone is forgetting about the Ghostbloods… knowing about Adolin’s murder of Sedaes and staging another exactly like it seems like something exactly like they would do.
I LOVE Kaladin’s scenes when he steps further towards the path of the Windrunners. It gives me all the feels, I get all *misty*
So, random thought about who may be orchestrating further murders…is there any chance that King E may have something to do with It? After all, he was willing to go so far as to create certain scenarios of sabotage to put himself at risk in order to convince others that he was being targeted for assassination. Perhaps he is needing to bring focus back on to himself as he may be feeling left behind once again with the rise of the Radiants and Dalinar’s increasing power grab. Could these “shadows” he’s been seeing be taking over his mind/soul somehow and influencing him in some crazy, tragic direction?
Could Ialai be manipulating him?
Just some random thoughts.
Awesome
and Brightlord broodingeyes……..roflmao
A….MA… ZING!! Thank you TOR!
Perhaps someone could remind me, but I noticed it said “Jasnah had searched this place out in the hope of finding books and records here of ancient date; so far, they hadn’t found anything like that.”
When was Jasnah in Urithiru? Where is Jasnah!!!
Few more random thoughts:
1) I wonder if Laral has been in much contact with Elkokar’s wife. Brandon made it clear there had been some back-and-forth via spanreed with Kholinar. Wouldn’t surprise me if she’s involved with plots involving the queen.
2) I lean towards the murder being a desperate ploy by Ialai to try and get Sadeas’ murderer to reveal themselves. Could be one of the secret societies trying to do the same however.
3) I get the feeling Renarin had the blanket and tea as a after-affect of intense truthwatching. Think he had done so recently and saw something about Adolin. Not convinced in the slightest he think Adolin may be Odium’s champion though. I think he may know he murdered Sadeas however (or will soon).
4) Shallan’s interactive Roshar map I’m pretty sure is a function of Dalinar’s bondsmith powers. Could be what bondsmiths do – amplify/augment/enhance/modify other radiants powers.
5) I wonder if we will see Kaladin truly “ride” a storm this book. Oathgates are faster obviously but don’t give you the perspective of seeing the entire world from above. I don’t see why Kaladin couldn’t fly/fall above a highstorm for a long ass time (enough to circle all of Roshar?) Plus he could “fall” away from the highstorm at any point when he sees something that requires his attention/slaughtering capability.
I see other posters are thinking the same direction as me regarding the copycat murderers: Sadeas’ widow Ialai was clever and heavily involved in dirty business. I’m guessing she ordered the copycat murder just to watch who started acting crazy and guilty as a response. She likely already suspected Adolin, but it will be obvious to her with Adolin acting like the most-guilty person ever.
Poor Adolin, Ialai is going to have so much fun tormenting him into a full-blown breakdown and when he finally breaks and confesses use that to undermine Dalinar.
This is my favorite day of the week. More chapters, hooray!
Renarin thoughts:
He was able to move around unnoticed to scratch out the countdown etc. Maybe this is part of his ability and not just part of his fade-into-the-background personality (or lack thereof)? He has described himself as being able to “see” and predicting the future was considered a dark art of sorts. I don’t know if that means he’s really a good (Honor) guy. Maybe he saw what Adolin did and decided to “copy” the killing to try and throw suspicion off of his brother?
(I have wondered if Renarin’s health issues were part of Dalinar’s curse from the NightWatcher. Of course, we still don’t know tons about his wife/sons’ mother so….. cue the unintelligible mumbling.)
OR-
Maybe Mraize organized the copycat killing as one more way to encourage Shallan to work with them. He already has his hooks into her brothers, maybe gaining some power over her boyfriend is another tool.
I can’t wait to find out. Is it next week yet?
What is the “true evil” Kaladin has seen? Sadeas? Szeth? Gaz? He hasn’t personally seen the Voidbringers yet…
So spren types have four genders “because humans didn’t imagine them.” Interesting.
Haha, now Azir’s government is probably not what you think it is.
I’m a bit eager to learn who the murder victim was.
Loving the chapters!
I see that the popular theory for the second murder was that it was lalai. I would have to agree with this too.
If I have to come at this from another direction, would someone have seen that Adolin did it and want to pull suspicion away from him? Like… make it look like it is some serial killer and try to pin the blame on someone else?
I dont know, just trying to think differently :D.
@@@@@ 54. Sweetliliflower: It kind of reminded me of Perrin coming back to the Two Rivers, but instead of hating his awesome wolf powers and trying to hide them, and taking 7 books until he finally accepts his new role as leader, Kaladin does it in one chapter. Bam! I’m awesome! I’ll protect you! Follow me!
@57 I took the 4 genders of spren to mean that the thing they represent existed before humans. Think for example wind was there before humans imagined it. But shame is purely a human construct.
@64 “Searched this place out …” as in looked for Urithiru. She still hadn’t managed to find it.
@64 ModestOleander
“Jasnah had searched this place out in the hope of finding books and records here ” So she was searching to find Urithiru, not searching Within Urithiru. The last time I remember reading about her, she was hiking with Hoid/Wit.
I kind of hoped she’d arrived and that’s why Shallan was being called to Dalinar’s meeting room. I’m ready for a reunion!
It just occurred to me– we as a fandom are so spoiled. No one else is getting weekly chapters from a yet to be published book.
so next question for me is…
…are all cognitive spren the result of humans, with the more elemental ‘subspren’ the result of the Listeners?
@72 and @73 … duh! I read that a few times and didn’t catch it. Wow, the excitement is getting to my head.
For sure need a Jasnah chapter soon!
Did anyone else find the scout disconcerting? I was wondering if she was perhaps from the Ghostbloods sent to discover more about Shallan. How many people would have the audacity to pick up and flip through the sketchbook of someone as important as Shallan without asking first. She seemed too inquisitive, as well.
I think Jasnah will show up at one of the main cities and open up the second Oathgate. Wouldn’t it be funny for her to find Lift.
@67 – Truthwatchers have Illumination as one of their surges, so it wouldn’t be surprising if fading into the background came with the gig – it’s reasonable to assume that even if he doesn’t do it using Shallan’s memory & drawing tricks, he can still do interesting stuff with light and create illusions, such as the illusion that he’s not there. He could do that subconsciously as a result of a desire not to attract notice as the “different” Kholin brother.
@67 You took the words right out of my brain.
My first impression on reading the last chapter was that it was either Renarin or the Ghostbloods. The first to protect his brother and the second to put more pressure on Shallan.
But that’s why I like Sanderson books. Won’t know until we read it!
@76 While I figured out what it was talking about I found that particular passage to be a little confusing to read. It just came out awkward, I think.
@55: I get them from the “Words of Brandon”. Lately, someone asked Brandon if Dalinar will punish Adolin, to which he answered: Dalinar does not know, nobody knows, but he would if he did. Note this isn’t the exact wording: I recall the verb tenses used made it peculiar, but most people have interpreted as proof there were no witnesses. Also, there is the fact the Sadeas’s soldiers looked for him for a full day before finding him: had there been a witness, they would have known where to look. Thus, I am pretty convinced nobody knows but Adolin.
On Adolin: He seems to be juggling way too many balls at once: sooner or later, he will drop one, then he’ll lose focus and drop them all. Many character analysis of Adolin, prior to OB, had him confess early on thinking he wouldn’t be able to keep such a secret for long. I was wrong. His impulse to keep remain strong and reliable are just stronger than his inability at dealing with secrecy. Seeing how he has reacted so far, I expect he will keep his secret until he just can’t. My prediction now is inline with an earlier comment: he will have a mental breakdown and seeing how vividly he has reacted to new things so far, I say it won’t be pretty when it happens. What will make it worst is nobody will see it coming… especially not Dalinar.
I have a feeling things will go bad for Adolin, really bad. I have this feeling of dread, this feeling this situation is going to rapidly escalade and while Adolin brought it all onto himself, I think he is stuck in a position where he can’t act, only react.
Funny is I think what will break Adolin would have never broke Renarin, but what broke Renarin wouldn’t have broken Adolin either… Mirror, mirror.
On Renarin needing a POV: No. It is way too early for this. Giving him a POV would unravel to much and the story telling is much better if we are left trying to guess. I suspect we may see the investigation through Adolin’s eyes: he doesn’t know what is happening, us the readers not knowing too just raises the stakes.
On Shallan and Adolin: Well… She thinks he is easily readable, like a newborn. Will this be their downfall? Realizing he has lied to her? He hasn’t told her the truth? Neither did she, but I now have an inkling she will react very badly towards seeing Adolin can have secrets. Bad ones.
On Secret Societies being behind the murder: I don’t believe it. Why would they? What is there motives? I can’t think of none which makes sense.
On Kaladin meeting Jasnah while hunting: Well, this is an interesting idea. Speaking of which did anyone else noted how Lirin did not seem happy at Kaladin’s new role in life? He isn’t… proud, disappointed sounded more like it. Anyone else got this feeling?
My initial thoughts on Chapters 7-9
How convenient for Kaladin that he remembers to protect even those he does not like until after he punches Roshone.
I wonder if the 4th Ideal has something to do with be better – I, the KR must be a better person now that I am a KR than before.
I have to give Syl some credit. I was not sure if she would have been open to the notion that Kaladin had some justification in punching Roshone (although she must be glad that Kaladin realizes that he should not have thrown the punch).
What is it with spren and elegant weapons. First Wydle in Edgedancer and know Syl.
Not that I realistically thought that Laral and Kaldin would have a relationship, but Chapter 7 effectively ended any hope that such a relationship will occur.
“people who now whispered “Shardbearer” and got out of his way with alacrity. So be it. He’d accepted his place the moment he’d seized Syl from the air and spoken the Words.” – Wait, does that mean Kaladin just spoke the 4th Ideal? Or was he referring to the 3rd Ideal?
I wonder if Shallan will ever come to accept that she killed her mother to save her own life. She did something similar when killing her father. She was saving Balat’s life. Had Shallan not acted, he may have killed Balat. All the Davar children could have been in danger. Lin had already killed Shallan’s stepmother. If he did not kill Balat at that point, he may have eventually.
Perhaps Renarin’s powers of “seeing” allow him to pick up on other’s emotions (perhaps an empath of some type). He realizes that Adolin is not acting normal. Obviously Adolin knows that he killed Sadeas. I wonder if as OB progresses, it will be Renarin (using his Truthwatcher power) to bring to light Adolin’s murder of Sades. I would think that the order of Truthwatcher would have as part of its code: to bring to light what is hidden. This could go hand and hand with the ability to “see” the future.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
edited to make clear that Adolin murdered Sadeas; not that Adolin was murdered.
@82. yeah, Lirin isn’t proud. he doesn’t seem as disappointed as a Tinker in WoT, but he does see himself and his son as being ‘better ‘ than others because they are doctors. this is where Kaladin gets his bearing that others (Adolin, Shallan) think of him as thinking he’s better than Lighteyes.
What nobody seems to realize is that a copy-cat murder could just be convenience. It seems likely that nobody knows but a using a copy-cat murder is a good way to cover up your own involvement. As long as there is no evidence leading back it will make it hard to determine who is behind it because there are no apparent common threads of motive.
Another option is that Ialai or somebody else allied with Sadeas saw Sadeas’ murder as a threat from Dalinar and friends and decided to strike back and make it a copy-cat murder so that suspicion would be on whoever did the first murder.
There are plenty of reasons to copy somebody else’s murder without knowing who they were.
@75:
I don’t think so. It was mentioned by Khriss in Arcanum Unbounded that some spren formed based on the presence of Honor, some formed based on the presence of Cultivation, some formed based on the presence of Odium, and some spren were in existence prior to the Shattering.
We find out in Secret History that even on Scadrial, the campfire Kelsier collects in the Cognitive Realm has identity, based on how humans perceive it, yet Scadrial (or even Shadesmar around Scadrial) has no spren. I imagine that the subspren are just manifestations in the physical realm of what exists all over the Cosmere–sentient thought imbuing identity within the Cognitive Realm. Perhaps the barrier between Roshar and Shadesmar is thinner than the barrier on other worlds, for reasons that predate the Shattering?
@82, 84:
I don’t think that Lirin thinks he’s “better” because he’s a doctor. He says he didn’t want his son to have to fight. He understands the necessity of it, and says as much in this chapter. He just didn’t want Kaladin to have to suffer with the guilt and trauma.
Lirin raised his son in a society that reveres warriors above all else. He wanted Kaladin to know that saving lives was more important than taking them. Kaladin got the message, just not the way Lirin wanted him to. There’s a bit of a disconnect between the way they think, and it makes Lirin overcompensate a little. And caused Kaladin to suffer through enormous bouts of guilt (which seems to be over.)
And if I were Lirin, and thought as he did, and saw my son floating in the air holding a shardblade, giving commands to people, and talking about fighting the coming war, I might feel like I completely failed to impress upon my son that you can be worthy without having to kill people.
Poor Shallan. She doesn’t get any uncomplicated love in her life, does she?
@85:
I wouldn’t say nobody. I mentioned it @11. The problem with a it being a copycat murder is that this is fiction:
• The guy who got murdered is a rando whom we don’t know. (At least, I don’t, correct me if I’m wrong.)
• We’ve already got one body in a book that isn’t a murder mystery. We know the murders were done by two different people. Because this is fiction, murder B really, really needs to tie into murder A, or be important on its own. So far, its not important on its own, so why include it in the story?
@88:
Complicated people don’t get uncomplicated relationships. Its worth noting that Shallan attracted a type of spren despised by Honorspren, not trusted by other spren, and referred to as “liespren” long before her mother tried to harm her. She had already bonded with Pattern and said the First Ideal, and gone to the second level of Radiant prior to her mother’s death. When she was a small child.
Shallan Davar was always complicated.
@89 The murdered character led the distraction while Adolin cut through the wall to get to the singers.
With a second murder, there will have to be an investigation, and the royal family needs to be tied to it. Assigning Shallan the duty almost made more sense, and would have provided its own amusements.
KALADIN OH MY GOD! I cried at the end…… Thank you Brandon Sir.
The Oathgates could be used for infusing spheres multiple times during a highstorm once they unlock them across the continent. As it takes time for the storm to cross Roshar, the speres can first be infused in Narak, then teleported to Urithuru to do massive supply runs to/from wherever and then the spheres are placed outside again at the Oathgate in Kholinar or wherever etc. I hope we get to see such smart usage of Oathgates instead of them only recharging spheres at Urithuru and then instantly wasting half their energy to move troops/supplies about.
Kaladin’s chapter made me wonder about Alethi politics. Once he showed Syl off, Roshone and everyone else completely deferred to him. Just being a Shardbearer makes him third Dahn. Not to mention whatever Radiant makes him. So does his family outrank Roshone too? Are Lirin and Hesnia the new major power in Hearthstone? Even though the lands themselves are granted to Roshone by the king, from what we’ve seen of Alethi politics, it is usually the figure of the higher Dahn who is granted the most deference.
Another thought. Even if Lirin isn’t the type to swing his weight around, most of politics is who you know(or how much influence you have with people in power). Kaladin demostrated that he is definitely acquainted directly with both the king’s mother and uncle. Not sure if Kal let slip that he was, at one point, Captain of the bodyguards protecting the king Himself or not. So, it seems to me, that someone politcally minded like Roshone or Laral wouldn’t want to get on the bad side of Kal’s family anymore.
Also, even Moash got lands when he became a shardbearer(though eventually someone will probably get around to stripping him of those, for the whole “plot to kill the king” thing.) When will Kal get his lands and small folk to lord over?
Lastly. Kal professes to dislike lighteyes and lording over people. His word, however, carries alot of weight with powerful nobility now. Even disreguarding his Dahn and Radiant status he is a powerful political figure, especially compared to unimportant lighteyes on the lower end of the spectrum.
I apologize for all the grammar/spelling errors. I’m too lazy to attempt to fix them on my phone.
@93:
I’m not sure how efficient that would actually be. Also, we don’t know exactly how the Oathgates work yet, is it transporting mass that uses up more stormlight? If so, then transporting large quantities of stones to be infused may provide diminishing returns, not to mention you are talking about other nations sovereign territories.
I think a more likely use is trading dun spheres in Urithiru for infused spheres in an Oathgate city prior to a highstorm. Assuming the cost (in Stormlight) of transferring the spheres twice is less than they get back in return.
After getting through my reread. Does anyone else get the sense that these copycat murders are likely to continue? Poltically, I think it looks bad for his main rival to end up dead, especially given his fierce reputation. It seems the best way to weaken his position of power. A wise move as I doubt anyone could confidently think assassinating Dalanir would be possible without Szeath. So the best way to attack him is to cast doubt on him and his relatively new found honor. I think that Adolin will be forced to confess to his father (maybe others too), as a way to protect Dalinar from the expanding politcal mess that started with his mistake.
@94:
Radiant doesn’t make him anything in Alethi rank, other than basically being able to ignore it. The Radiants disbanded themselves a long time prior to Alethkar being formed as a nation. It was a different country (with a similar name) at the time, and Nohadon was darkeyed. And they didn’t seem to have anything like the Dahn system.
Kaladin definitely outranks Roshone in the Dahn system. Roshone is described as a minor lighteyes, according to Dalinar, and Shardbearers are one step below Adolin.
However, Roshone rules land based on the King’s Writ. Dahn’s are more of a social standing. No one outside the chain of leaders holds actual authority over Roshone as the lord of Hearthstone. So, Roshone, Highprince Sadeas (or whomever now), Eholokar.
@96:
I don’t see how the copycat murders force Adolin to confess. He’s not going to confess to the OTHER murders, after all. And that’s going to create a mess.
Only part way through the chapters…but props to Kal!
Hunny. Plant my flag.
I think I really like this format. I think when I get the book, I’ll write my thoughts down on each chapter like this to post on the reread.
You know I wasn’t trying to set you up, AP. I had my next comment plugged in and hit post immediately, but somehow you hexed it. Curses, foiled again.
@@@@@ 97 True, but I imagine that as more and more Radiants try to integrate into Alethi society some kind of standing will be appointed to them. Can Radiants order around Highprinces? or Citylords? Or even Kings, with the new unified world Dalinar is trying to build. Although I figure alot of it will depend on the specific Noble and Radiant involed, I’m just trying to guess how far Kaladin’s “Because I said so! see my glowing eyes and shardblade?” Attitude would actually go.
I thought Kal inherited his Second Nahn status from his family. So I was wondereing if the reverse were true for Lirin. Now that Kal is Third Dahn.
@@@@@ 77 Winter Solstice That struck me as very odd as well! Also the fact that Shallan didn’t call her out about it. I was extremely surprised since I feel that Shallan has very strong boundary issues. Of course I am equating human real life experience with a fantasy character. That being said though, part of the pull of a book and especially ones like these are the progression of maturity and character traits. So I am curious to see if this will be addressed later in the book!
@100 I’d like to try that but I’d never be able to stop reading to take a break and write.
@102 I wouldn’t expect ennoblement would flow backwards up the family tree. Not when it depends on a physical trait. Kal’s parents are still darkeyed, regardless of his new party trick.
Ways@101:
You know double posting to get the Hunny is a penalty. Yellow flags would have been everywhere.
Noble@104 – Its definitely easier to do if you are reading on the computer. I don’t know that I’m going to be able to limit myself to reading this book with my laptop open. Its not exactly like live tweeting a tv show, is it? Still, its only taking me an hour to read the three chapters and write up the post as I go. Might be doable, as an experiment.
Did anyone notice that Kaladin’s definition of home has changed? He no longer calls Hearthstone home. So is home for him a place (Urithru or the Shattered Plains) or is it people (the Kholin Family) or is it (bringing back the ship) Shallan?
@104 I can see that, I expect that might be why we don’t have at least a few darkeyed “lighteyes” from the decendants of darkeyes who managed to win Shardblades before.
@@@@@ Gepeto 82. “Speaking of which did anyone else noted how Lirin did not seem happy at Kaladin’s new role in life? He isn’t… proud, disappointed sounded more like it. Anyone else got this feeling?”
Yes, I did and thought it odd for a few moments. Then when I considered the outcome from history of the first KR, I could definitely understand why he could be disappointed. It may be he harbored the hope that Kaladin would return to work with him again.
I was actually more surprised with Kaladin’s mom and her reaction to the news.
@107:
Good catch, I had that thought, but didn’t call attention to it (there was SOOO much in that chapter!). Pretty sure home is not Urithiru, though, but Bridge Four.
@87 Anthony Pero Well said! As a parent we want only the best for our children and we want them to be able to truthfully see who they are, as they are.
On Homes: I noticed a few things. I did notice Kaladin not thinking of Heartstone as home just as I noticed Adolin referring to Kholinar as home with a certain sadness. I do not know what to make of it: Kaladin has been away from home for 5-6 years? And he doesn’t think of it as such: he made his life elsewhere. Adolin has been away from Kholinar for a long time too (6 years since the beginning of the War), but he still thinks of it as home.
Obviously none it is likely relevant, but I noticed the parallel, intentional or not.
@109 I don’t think that Lirin knew Kaladin was a KR, he just thought he’d become a soldier who acquired a shardblade. They didn’t find out until the end of the chapter that he was a radiant as well, and it said Lirin’s jaw dropped and Hesina looked overjoyed, so I don’t know how he feels now he knows the truth. I assumed his initial disappointment went back to how he reacted during the flashbacks in WoK, when Kal showed interest in becoming a soldier. He’s always tried to impart to Kaladin the importance of saving lives instead of taking them, and I think that this was where he finally gave up hope that Kaladin might still find his way back to becoming a surgeon.
However, we don’t know how he feels now that he knows Kal isn’t just any old shard owner, he’s a KR. I’m curious to see if he will still be disappointed that Kal is a fighter or proud that he’s a KR. I think maybe both.
Okay, so I have lead a sheltered forum life, but what the heck is a “hunny? I keep seeing this word pop up from time to time and I have no idea what it means. ‘Splain it to me please?
Does anyone else find it odd that Kaladin orders multiple of their best horses (which have previously been established as invaluable) then he just #yolos and flies off at the end….Are the horses for his travel when he comes back (maybe for transporting his family). If not it seems a little odd.
Overall I loved the new chapters. Wrapped up the Kaladin returning home mini arc and gave us some good insight into Shallan and why she has been in the background.
As far as the murders go I am leaning more towards the Ghostbloods or some other secret group taking advantage of Sadeas’s murder to cover for people they needed out of the way. It seems like it was just a minor unknown character at this point, but he was from Serbial’s camp (where Shallan currently is). I am willing to bet that Shallan will be investigating from the Ghostblood side of things while Adolin is investigating and that those will tie together somehow.
Re: Lirin’s and Hesina’s place in Alethi society
Kaladin can tell Roshone what to do. Lirin and Hesina can tell Kaladin what to do. So I figure that in a roundabout way, yes, they are far higher than their nahn officially places them. I doubt they’d actually exercise that influence, but it is there.
hunny is for the hundredth comment, it’s the new “first comment!”
@88 writelhd. Shallan is a very complicated person. I thought that precluded having simple relationships, with anyone.
@115 He’d wanted the horses before he found out that people had managed to infuse their spheres during the highstorm, but once he got their stormlight infused spheres he didn’t need them anymore.
@18 Somewhere I read that not all of the orders got along. With Pattern loving lies and Renarin being a Truthwatcher, it stands to reason that Shallon could get an uneasy feeling when she (or Pattern) senses Renarin behind them.
@82. I definitly think that Lirins reaction is odd. It is like Lirin knows something. And there is also the fact that Lirins oldest and youngest sons have names that are more suited to a lighteyes. And Hesinas parents were against her marriage to Lirin. There is more to that story that we have left to learn.
It seems odd rhat we have heard a lot about the new apprentice but not seen her yet. I wonder if she is going to turn out to be someone Kaladin interacted with during some of his slavery escape attempts?
My first thought was that the Ghostbloods was behind the second murder but I could see it being at the instgation of Ialai as well. I think we might get more clues when we see Sebarials reaction.
Last but not least, who is Sadeas’ heir? Why have we heard NOTHING from or about him?
I wonder if Lirin is still a bit disappointed. He forever disagreed with Kaladin about the kill/save dichotomy. Now Kaladin is living proof that there is that middle road, specifically taking oaths to do exactly that.
@115 He orders the horses before he realizes he’s got stormlight available.
@117:
I am INSULTED (not really) that you refer to it as the “new ‘first comment'”. It has a grand old tradition on this very site! i captured my very first hunny [insert link to comment]. [Edit: I was going to hunt that comment down, but that doesn’t seem to be possible on this site anymore. You used to be able to get a list of all your comment and sort them on the old site.]
Actually, I think it WAS developed as a reaction to the Mods busting down on “First Comment” comments. They asked us to stop, so we started posting the Hunny… by then, they weren’t paying attention.
@119 and @122 Thanks I got a little mixed up on the timing of that. Makes a lot more sense now.
@123 now that I know about it I too will by fighting for my first HUNNY.
@89 I get that there needs to be plot connection but taking advantage of the first murder (which had a clear plot connection already) to spin off another plot that we don’t currently know about is enough for it to be mentioned and to come up. It could simply be that a known player just used it to off somebody that we will later discover the importance for.
I don’t think there is a lot of merit in the “discredit somebody” option since we are pretty sure nobody knows who did it at least not by witnessing it firsthand.
I did remember your comment after you pointed it out but nobody else has taken hold of the idea. For some reason most people seem to think somebody had to know about the murder. Somebody could easily have seen the dead body and planned a murder to look identical without having seen the murder or knowing who did it. It is obviously important and is likely connected to one of the main important plots but that doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Adolin.
@106[Edit: I meant 103] In WoR Shallan had interacted quite a bit with the scouts if I remember correctly. It is possible that this particular scout was at least somewhat familiar to Shallan and she was used to the scouts being curious about her sketches. That being said I wouldn’t put it passed Brandon to have this mean something
For what it’s worth, my first reaction was Sadeas’s widow. A dangerous schemer, more devious than her husband, grieving, in charge of the spy network. Fits to me. The secret societies just don’t fit for me, even as leverage against Shallan.
Anthony @106 – Careful, you’re gonna get drafted as a beta if you keep up this sort of behavior! :D
i believe that renarin used his truthwatcher power to find out that ado kin did the murder and then committed the second murder to take the heat off adolin perse and the reason he didn’t step down to the murder shows his culpability/feeling of guilt. He seems to know quite a few things and his love for his family is trying to save adolin.
Hey all, first time poster here.
Just a few thoughts.
1. I’m not really buying Ialai as the mastermind of the copycat murder. The justifications/rationalizations just don’t seem plausible to me. And the crime scene seems too planned for normal humans to set up. I’m leaning towards Ghostbloods, but I honestly don’t have a reason, but I think it will come up later.
2. I love seeing Kaladin mature, becoming a …4th….or 5th? new man. I’m very glad he’s put his grudge against Roshone behind him.
3. Syl is awesome. I wonder how much she remembers now. She talks about the 4 genders of old spren. That doesn’t seem like something she’d have known last book. Does she know it all now?
4. Regarding the 3D map, I think it’s a Bondsmith’s ability to enhance other Radiants and not that any two types of Radiants can do something special. Just from the way Shallan describes being pulled towards Dalinar.
5. I’m surprised Dalinar hasn’t pushed Renarin explore his powers more (at least on-camera). What can he do? Does anyone, other than himself, know? I think Renarin, as a whole, is the biggest mystery right now.
6. I’m thinking that the messenger who got Shallan is hoping to become a KR to be able to fight. She’s put off because Shallan says she can stay feminine (stick to the feminine arts). I’m guessing we’ll be seeing more of her, or other females hoping to fight.
WetlanderNW@128:
I’d be flattered to be offered that chance, but would decline for any Cosmere books. I don’t want to be spoiled! And I read Warbreaker 4.0… Let’s just say I’d rather just enjoy the final book.
But if Peter needs an extra set of eyes for Apocalypse Guard, feel free to throw my name in the hat!
WHY DO I DO THIS TO MYSELF THE WAIT IS TORTURE I WISH I HADN’T FOUND OUT ABOUT THESE WEEKLY RELEASES. The pain is real.
I love it! It mostly feels like a lot of setup, foreshadowing, and characters finding their places in their settings once more and bumping into other characters.
I don’t see how Renarin could be the killer. He’s never killed anyone before, he could probably burn someone’s eyes out if he’s that far along, but I don’t see how he could possibly have gained the skills necessary to kill in the particular way the Solider was killed. it would also seem out of character for him
@82 and others: I think Lirin had the negative reaction to the shardblade because he assumes Kaladin killed someone for it. I hope at some point Kaladin explains that Syl is a living shard blade, and he did not have to kill anyone for her. That being said, he did kill a shardbearer in the past, but maybe Lirin will feel better about Kaladin’s Sylblade if he knows it doesn’t represent an actual death.
@91 Meerletalis The murdered man’s name was Vedekar Perel. While I don’t dispute what you are saying, could you tell me where that information is located?
Also something I noticed in rereading the new chapters is how Navani acted and what she specifically, which I thought was odd, all things considered.
“Navani knelt beside the body, away from the blood running toward a drain on the far side of the basin. “Remarkable… the positioning, the puncturing of the eye… It’s exactly like what happened to Sadeas. This has to be the same killer.”
The italicized word is not from my adding it in the above excerpt of the chapter, but from what is here on site.
It strikes me as very odd that given who Navani is, how aware she is as a person , and of her obvious intellect that she would not say,”this appears to be exactly like what happened to Sadeas.
I also found it odd that Shallan’s character pointed out that this room was a “bathing chamber”. Possibly just added background information for the reader since the murdered man’s blood was going down into the drain.
Is anyone getting anything else done, other than being here today?
Regarding Bondsmiths, I agree that their ‘additional’ power is probably quite similar to duralumin. I believe that the Windrunners is the squires, Lightweavers is memory, skybreakers is dividing the innocent from the guilty. We’ll have to wait to see for elsecallers, edgedancers (lift’s food is not one of the abilities) and truthwatchers.
A lot of this is from the epigraphs.
This is really exciting! I keep feeling ripped off because it’s almost midnight on a Tuesday because of the time difference, although it’s probably the exact same time.
Anthony Pero @105
Yeah, it probably should be, and whomever is running the interwebs today apparently thought so too. IIRC, it used to happen back on Leigh’s blog though.
Spiritwalker51 @136 – Hah! I read this MONTHS ago, and I’m still not getting anything done! It’s too much fun hanging out and reading the comments!
Wait hold on, why is Adolin not injured still?? I remember him being injured 4 chapters ago. And creepy Renarin isn’t so bad you guys, he’s just an awkward turtle.
@112 Gepeto. Possibly the difference in the issue of what feels like “home” is that because of Kaladin’s experiences being of such a personal nature and involving the kind of loss he has had, he has grown beyond Hearthstone as feeling like home. Just a thought.
@117 Jenny. Thanks. I thought it might be something like that, but wasn’t sure.
@139 You got to read the book early? That’s AWESOME! Is every chapter as good as these???
@141 Two chapters ago, Kal mentioned he died 4 times since he left, he probably thinks the Kal who called Hearthstone home is dead.
@140 He is definitely still injured. I think there were at least 2 points where it was noted (when Shallan tried to take his hand, but took his arm instead, etc…)
The one thing that is most curious to me is the 4 genders. I am really interested to see if this will be explored more and how this ties to the listeners.
@141 also he specifically mentions Urithiru (or at least where the army is currently) as home.
“ ‘Careful,’ ” Dalinar responded. “ ‘You don’t have any Stormlight left?’ ”
“I might be able to find a little. I doubt it will be enough to get me home, but it will help.”
I think he has become accustom to the military and now the Knights Radiant as his new family and wherever they are is home to him.
@143 ICYMI, here’s the write up on getting to read the book early: https://www.tor.com/2017/06/27/unity-of-purpose-the-oathbringer-beta-story/
@145 I’m new to commenting here so I never saw this. Thanks!
@136 WOR Chapter 82 Kindle reader won’t allow me to copy it.
@126 Vandaralden I agree, she did interact with some, but it still struck me as odd. I would have thought there might be more in that scene of the meeting, if she knew the scout. It is hard to second guess the author’s intent.
@140: Adolin is still injured. I commented on how Brandon took the time to note twice he was injured within 9 chapters at my commentary, up there @12. I personally think Adolin’s wrist will be important which is why Brandon is making sure:
1) We remember he injured it.
2) It hurts him to just move the hand.
Meerletalis @147: I’m pretty sure you’re correct, but could you connect the dots? The character in WoR is only referred to as “Perel.” I did a (very) quick search and couldn’t verify that Adolin was leading Sebarial’s troops in the battle. It’s completely plausible, but is it actually stated? If you can pin that down for me, then I’ll definitely agree with you. (Until then, I’ll just believe it’s almost certainly true. :-)
Re: Renarin PoV: Here are two possible reasons for no Renarin PoV so far. BWS has stated that Renarin is on the spectrum and he doesn’t want to write a PoV from him until he’s confident he can do it correctly. Second, it would be really hard to write a PoV from someone who can see the future without either giving away too much or being unsatisfying because of not revealing things that should have been revealed in his PoV.
@150 I think a large portion is more related to him wanting to accurately write a PoV for a character that is on the spectrum.
“Second, it would be really hard to write a PoV from someone who can see the future without either giving away too much or being unsatisfying because of not revealing things that should have been revealed in his PoV.”
I don’t think it is an issue with having a character see the future because as we know from Dalinar’s visions, (and now knowing that Gavilar was having them too) seeing the future is very much up to interpretation and can easily be misinterpreted by the PoV character to the reader or misinterpreted by the PoV character. I think he could write this without spoiling things, but it isn’t the right time and he wants to do the characters PoV accurately.
(This is something I love about Sanderson. Not enough writers take time to write accurately regarding different cultures, personality types, disabilities, etc. Just like how he postponed Rithmatist 2 to make sure he researched the culture and could write about it accurately)
Chapter 7!!!!!! Yes!!! Amazing. Awesome. I’m crying and laughing and cheering all at the same time!
Wetlandernw @139. First of all, I am going to change my addressing other members to do as you have done. I get lost really easy trying to keep track of who wrote the original comment and also all the responses. Your adding the forum ID first, then the comment number is a BIG help. Appreciate it so much.
I hear you on that. I listened to WoK and WoR last year. I have audiobooks of them, and right now I am listening to Elantris:Tenth Anniversary Special Edition and then will listen to Arcanum Unbounded:The Cosmere Collection.
I just finished listening to WoR for the 4th or 5th time last week. These are EPIC story lines and I have to relisten to them to get more facts, more layers and nuances of characters and also simply put, I get more out of each experience. I figure I will have time to listen to them yet one more time before Oathbringer is released and I get it thru Audible. I can hardly wait!
Meerletalis@147. Thanks, I have audible but can find the chapter and scroll through to find it that way. Appreciate it.
jpoet1291 @@@@@ 151: I agree, that doing the PoV correctly is probably the more important reason. That being said, I’m not sure I follow your argument, since Dalinar’s visions are of the past, not the future. That being said :-), I agree with your larger point, that writing a prescient character definitely could be done, and I’m sure that once BWS decides he can do justice to Renarin’s PoV, he’ll be able to handle the other satisfactorily.
Re: Rank being inherited backward
In TWoK, it specifically says it’s not:
Shallan will be proud of Adolin for lying and / or have to tell him about her murder because he will feel so bad (unworthy or something). That didn’t come out clearly at all. I expect some fun/interesting reactions when Shallan talks to Adolin about his lie/murder.
Ialai noticed that nobody was tracking down the killer *just because it was Sadeas*. One more death means that it wasn’t just Sadeas, someone’s killing people, and they have to be looked for. Nobody else needs to die, it was the easiest way to get justice for her husbands death, right?
Robin Sparkles@143. That is not the take I have on those chapters. My feeling is that because of his experiences, it has changed him so much that he feels like he has died to his older selves and been reborn; as in how I am not the same person I was a year ago, or even 6 months ago. That is how I interpreted those chapters to mean.
I thought everyone’s theory that Kaladin would have a new sibling in addition to the new apprentice was overkill, but I seem to have severely overestimated the role the new apprentice would play. No meeting, no words exchanged, no noticing each other across the room, nada. Kal implies he will return to Hearthstone after dealing with the Voidbringers, so I guess we’ll get something then. Still feels a bit overkill even without the meeting in this chapter. Cool, though.
Syl not giving an F about being used as a weapon is great. I wondered several times through the last parts of WoR how she felt about being swung around and now I have my answer.
Not much to say about the other two chapters. Great bridging chapters and adds to current storylines. I think it’s safe to assume Ialai had the dude killed in a plot for revenge and getting the murderer to come forward. It’s clear Renarin has had a vision of Odium’s champion or at least the unmade and most likely knows Adolin wrecked Sadaes’ face. The question is if Renarin will actually do something for once or will he sit on the information for a thousand pages again. Shallan knows something is up, assumed wrong at first but given a few moments alone with Adolin she should be able to wiggle the ttruth out of him. How she reacts will be interesting to see. Will she be disappointed since it won’t align with her perspective of the handsome and goodhearted Adolin, or will she be like “Oh. Well, I killed my parents, it’s all good. Let’s get married now.”
@@@@@ 158 – Or knows that Adolin improved Sadeas’ face, depending on your point of view.
I kind of get the vibe that Kaladin and Laral still kind of has the feeling of “the one that got away” feeling between them, or at least on Kaladin’s side.
Probably because of Syl’s remark of liking Laral and Kaladin’s reaction.
I really do not understand how Renarin could know Adolin murdered Sadeas. I think it is more probable he noticed his brother was acting weird. I mean, when he saw the murder, he stood still, mouth opened, talking to himself and was completely unresponsive to Shallan trying to snap him out of it. It doesn’t take a Truthwatcher to see something is off with Adolin, even if he insists everything is fine.
As for Renarin’s POV, I failed to see what it would add. The fact we do not know what he sees nor what he thinks currently adds to the drama and the tension. If we knew, then it’d be over. I for one think Renarin’s POV, at this point in time within the story, would ruin the tempo and the suspense.
Hmm.
Since nearly all the theories are represented in the comments above, there is no need to repeat them again. So, i’ll make a summary, instead.
– In Words of Radiance it think it was mentioned that the truth watchers were the most secretive order and the order that never wrote anything down of what they learned of the future. Which I took to mean as they were almost always right in their pedictions. Maybe they even predicted the fall of the Knight Radiants from grace and the enslavement of the Listeners. Did they see a hopeless cause and leave? Or, we’re they ones who stayed till the last?
Renarin is a perfect match to that legend. In the 9th chapter, Renarin is being himself. I think he knows knows what Adolin did. And as Dalinar mentioned in WOR that renarin worships his brother, he likely wouldn’t be the one to betray him. But maybe he could tell Adolin that he knows? Maybe he just knows that Adolin had something to do with Sadeas’ murder? Or….
*Shrugs*
Pattern is a lie spren or a creation spren. He knows that Adolin is lying. Maybe a partial lie.
– The tower was abandoned even before the recreance or the last desolation. So, what was in the tower that made the Knight Radiant abandon it? Maybe an Unmade that kills in gruesome ways or dark, dark secrets that I don’t have the genius to imagine? Or just me being manipulated. Again.
– Dalinar, maybe, as a bondsmith enhances the control or sphere of control of the Radiants he interacts with. In WOR it was said that the bond smiths were always few and far between all the radiants and wouldn’t have liked expanding their order to the likes of other orders. Nor would the other orders like their expansion. I have the impression was implied.
So, maybe they do something like mimicking the abilities of the order orders by forming spiritual bonds through Shadesmar with the others. Does it make sense? Who likes to have their powers hijacked, anyway?
Maybe that happened with shallan and Dalinar when he ‘tugged’ on her, ability. Or maybe the storm father is all powerful and I’ve been mislead by my overactive mind.
– The Kaladin chapters were so beautiful. He manned up, claimed responsibility, accepted his duty, his life and all the while was vulnerable through it. I really adore him. His brother. Hmm. How old is he? He seems like Tien. Gurguling in happiness in the dreary atmosphere. Maybe he was the beautiful note that drew Syl to Kaladin. As the wind goes everywhere….
Child of peace. Soo…. he’s important. I just don’t know why.
– the Ghost bloods are active. Probably, peeking through all the levels and maybe they unleashed something trapped in the tower. Lalai is too calculating to… but then her husband died.
– Adolin on the investigation. He doesn’t seem like lift. I WILL REMEMBER THOSE WHO WERE FORGOTTEN. But he then goes and respects his blade by not giving it a name. I personally don’t think he is think he has less intelligence than shallan. He just has expertise in different places. For millenia, Alethkar has been a war praising nation, so he is the exact sculpture of that. But he is kind, gentle, nice and honourable. Also non-jealous but he does feel his inadequacy againat the new radiants or the storm brewing, before he kills Sadeas in WOR. Everyone has moments of weakness. But what if they are manipulated to act on that weakness….
Ooooh. What if being in the tower makes you lose reason or perhaps overpowers your commonsense to not do the things you really want to do when they can get you and your family in trouble? Maybe there is basically something that overpowers reason to just primal emotional reactions. Rage=murder. Lust=assault. Like that.
Shallan will discover Adolins actions and not condemn him. Kaladin will understand. I think as Adolin took th law into his own hands to get his own justice. He’ll probably be a Sky Breaker or a Dustbringer?
Anyway my brain is dead. My battery is dying and my fingers are tired.
I love you PEOPLE OF TOR. This book is amazing or will be and thank you for giving it to us beforehand. It really is a treat.
What is better than a surprise you love?
Nothing.
Thank You!
bad_platypus @155 “I agree, that doing the PoV correctly is probably the more important reason. That being said, I’m not sure I follow your argument, since Dalinar’s visions are of the past, not the future. That being said :-), I agree with your larger point, that writing a prescient character definitely could be done, and I’m sure that once BWS decides he can do justice to Renarin’s PoV, he’ll be able to handle the other satisfactorily.”
– I should have been more clear. Dalinar has seen visions of the past, but they were laced with the warnings about the Everstorm (future). Additionally I was thinking of his vision of Odium’s champion as a future vision, but I could be interpreting that wrong.
Personally I think the TruthWatcher ability for foresite will be less of an explicit foretelling and more of an intuition or 6th sense about how a situation will play out or what the results of a specific decision will bring. I think this will be the main ability with some interspersed specific foresite (the numbers on the wall in WoR).
After saying all that I did a little googling though and am curious why foresight is assumed or at least generally associated with Renarin and being a Truthwatcher? Their surges are Progression and Illumination.
This is a good summary of progression from wikipedia:
Growth: This ability accelerates organic growth to tremendous speeds. The Surgebinder can infuse the seeds to a plant with Stormlight through skin contact, and in seconds, it will become fully developed. It is unknown if this ability only works on plants.
Regrowth: This ability heals the damage done to the body and the soul of a person instantly and without any scarring. The flesh, muscle, or bones can be completely regrown rapidly. The body can be refreshed and rid of fatigue.The Surgebinder can even reverse death with Regrowth; a body that has bled out or a soul that has been severed with a Shardblade can be healed with Regrowth and continue to function as if it has never been damaged. However, once the soul leaves the body and reaches the afterlife, it is impossible for the Surgebinder to revive the person.
and a brief bit on Illumination:
Lightweaving: This ability creates visual and auditory illusions. The illusion is based upon not just what the Surgebinder imagines, but also desires to create, requiring both a mental picturing of and a Spiritual connection to the intended creation. Once the creation is shaped, the Surgebinder breathes out a cloud of Stormlight to form the illusion. (I trimmed the wiki of this because it was absurdly long)
Now I notice that Progression has two sub abilities, growth and regrowth. Is it assumed that all of the Surges will behave as such and therefore Illumination has Lightweaving and something else illumination related. Illumination of the future,past, etc…
I have always just assumed foresite was in the cards, but haven’t really looked into it much and now I am very curious. Also having a subclass of Knights Radiant would be interesting. Shallan focusing on the illusion aspects of her ability while Renarin is more gifted in the revealing aspects of illumination.
TLDR: I have to many ideas and no clue at the same time
I think the secrets that Adolins and Shallan each now keep from the world are interesting because I am not sure how each would react to knowing that about the other. (Which is why I want the rest of the book now! Kthx) I still don’t see Shallan being forthcoming about her past to any Kholin, even if she and Adolin do end up having a conversation about him killing Sadeas, but I do wonder if any of the Kholins will clue in that their future daughter-in-law has some pretty deep issues. Considering her complexity, they’d never guess the truth. She has hidden it well for a long a time, but she’s also facing it more and more thru her gig with Pattern, so it may not be as easy as it used to be. She might crack visibly but if Adolin were to confront her I doubt she’d be honest. I wonder, as a Truthwatcher, what Renarin sees about her? Maybe that’s part of why he feels creepy to her, he knows things. It is interesting that from the name of his order it seems likely to be diametrically opposed to hers, yet they share one surge in common. And maybe not so opposed, after all, as she can only progress if she speaks truths. Anyway, as to Adolin’s secret, I agree, it’s gonna get out, and it’s going to be painful for a lot of the characters we love. I couldn’t say if Shallan would approve, or be horrified, or come to accept after a struggle, or make a political decision to distance herself from Adolin to preserve her position and save her brothers, or what. just like I couldn’t say what Adolin would think if he really knew Shallan Davar.
This is something that I wondered after reading Chapter 4 rather than these most recent ones, but it just popped back in my head reading one of the comments above, so I’ma post it here:
“I don’t think you would lie, Dalinar,” Kadash said. “But I do think you can make mistakes. Do not forget that I was there. You are not infallible.”
There? Dalinar thought as Kadash backed up, bowed, then turned and left. What does he remember that I cannot?”
Anyone else get the impression that maybe Dalinar not remembering his first wife was his BOON, not his curse? In WoK, when Renarin and Navani asked if his visions were tied to the Old Magic, he simply said “I know what my boon and curse are, and this isn’t it” or something along those lines. Navani repeated that again in Chapter 4 when he told Navani he couldn’t remember his wife, and she was all “The Old Magic! You said you knew your boon and your curse!” He never said that the inability to remember his wife was the Curse part, and I wonder if Branderson is leading us on knowing we would infer that forgetting Shshshsh is the curse when in reality we come to find out its the boon.
Or maybe the ability to forget his involvement in her death was his boon, and forgetting everything else about her was the curse. Dunno, just thoughtstorming…
Lastly, when everyone here is saying “I wonder if that is what will finally cause Adolin to ‘break'”, are they referring to that in the Mistborn sense, or just wondering if the multiple murders will cause him to “break”-down and admit to killing Sadeas? There isn’t the Mistborn-type “breaking” required to become a KR, is there? I hadn’t ever picked up on that, but wouldn’t be surprised given the troubled pasts of Dalinar, Kal and Shallan (Renarin I don’t know enough about).
What if adolin was possessed by the unmade and killed the officer?
Aurora @135 – you beat me to it! I was going to say the same thing… remember peeps, all we see of Lirins reaction to Kaladin’s reveal as a ‘Knight Radiant’ is a stunned expression and his jaw hanging open. Neither of those sounds like ‘disappointment’ to me.
what came before comes within the context of assuming how Kaladin came by his position, his shards, when in reality he came by them through the depth of his character, his relationship with Syl, by actually being better than those who rule by right of birth, eye shade and fear.
I think Kaladin understands his fathers assumptions, hence his reaction and comments to him after tending the boy. It’ll be a whole other storey when/if they see each other again.
Re: Hunny = #00 comment
100, 200, 300, etc.
The only places I see it on Tor are WoT and Sanderson rereads. Occasionally on other blogs from veterans of those rereads. I came in late to the WoT blog, but I think it was also a celebration of sorts for having the comment count go that high.
Very few other threads get to 100, let alone 200.
Happy Hunny Hunting!
Re: Adolin’s wrist, it’s good to have the reminder that some of our main characters are still normal humans, with normal healing times. It’s been, what 2 weeks since the battle when it was broken?
I first read about Kaladin breaking his legs and healing in 2 minutes, after just getting out of 8 weeks in a boot after breaking one leg. I so wanted magical healing.
Just realised that Dahn sounding like dun probably isn’t a coincidence
I personally think that Adolin will be discovered to have murdered Sadeas and after that, he is shunned by his family (Dalinar mostly as it breaks the codes and everything he has been working for) and is banished. Because of this, he gets angry as he thinks his decision was the right one and becomes the enemy’s champion. After that, Adolin and the radiants (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) face off in a battle and Adolin loses. The end.
@162: I really really do not see the rational for Renarin to know Adolin killed Sadeas: it isn’t consistent with the other Truthwatchers we have seen. None of them had the ability to read within thoughts: they had perhaps good instincts, but they aren’t psychics. I am thus within the “Renarin perhaps noticed Adolin is behaving weirdly, but he does not know the truth” bandwagon.
I also do not get how Adolin’s behavior is supposed to be opposite to Lift nor why he should emulate her nor why it is relevant within this scene. Adolin’s current status is “normal human” being: he is currently going through something difficult. I think we ought to give him a bit of slack before insisting he can’t remember the forgotten because if there is one thing I believe Adolin has not forgotten is the fact he murdered Sadeas.
I am also within the “Shallan will feel betrayed Adolin looked at her in the eyes and lied to her because while it is alright for her to be deceitful, she hates it in others” bandwagon. I also now believe it will be the cause of their breakup: she will stop trusting Adolin. If he can fool her, if he can pass under her radar, then she is going to fear she isn’t in control, she is going to fear he is constantly lying to her. She won’t be able to trust him. Never mind she lied to him too, she never looked into his eyes and told him a blatant lie. I say, this one won’t go down well. After all, Shallan and Adolin WILL break-up, this is inevitable.
@164: I think what will hurt more is not knowing Adolin killed Sadeas, but the fact he managed to disappoint, deceive and lie to all of them. It is also something they never expected out of him. Adolin is supposed to be resilient, strong, unbreakable, able to toss anything which is thrown at him: finding out this isn’t true will be a truth nobody within the Kholin family is ready to face including Adolin. They rely on him. We see it within Dalinar’s inner monologue how the idea Adolin may not be fine with everything which is happening hasn’t even crossed his mind.
@165: I think we are just assuming Adolin will crack down, eventually, and tell the truth. He won’t be able to lie indefinitely and I suspect he will get entangled within so many lies he will end up in a dead end. What I personally meant when I wonder “what will make Adolin break down” is seeing how he is reacting so far, I expect the stakes to rise until they are unbearable. Then he will break, break in the sense he will tell the truth: with how much emotions in which circumstances, I cannot say but seeing how jumpy he is, I expect quite a reaction.
@168: Still, after two weeks, a broken wrist should not be throbbing. It should not be healed, but it shouldn’t hurt to move it around if it is splintered correctly. My thoughts are Brandon is mentioning it because it will be important. Later. One of my theories is the wrist will give him away….
@168
I thought it was a couple days between WoR and present. 10 days is a bit longer than I’m picturing. WoR’s Sanderson Avalanche ™ still seems to be settling.
Epigraphs are from Renarin.
On Renarin, I think illumination has a metaphorical and literal component to it. Illuminating people could reveal shadows/regrets an individual has; Renarin might just be noticing Adolin has gained an extra Sadeas-shaped shadow, and he’s equating this to Odium’s champion. Although, I can’t imagine killing Sadeas weighs too heavily on Adolin’s conscience…
Although it was mentioned up thread (sorry, I can’t find the post so I can credit that person), no one has picked this up yet: I’m very curious as to who replaces Sadeas as Highprince! Isn’t the position inherited? If so, I don’t recall any mention of an heir. Will Ialai defy convention and take over the ruling of the Princedom? Or, perhaps Elhokar will step in and appoint a new Highprince? Oh gosh, I could go on with other (even more unlikely) speculations!
jpoet1291 @@@@@ 115: I really like your thoughts regarding the murders, Ghostbloods, etc.
Also, more relevant to last week’s wedding, but whenever the Stormfather shows up, my mind has an
“HE’S THE *gerund form of a parental focused expletive* STORMFATHER!”
moment.
@162. Idontknow and @166. nerdblessed
Navani said it was the same killer. If that is true, although Adolin wielded the knife, something else killed Sadeas.
That would open a huge can of worms.
Would this explain the complete abandonment of Urithiru?
What would happen to trust, especially as the possessed people have no inkling of their possession?
Could Renarin have sensed an additional presence in the bathing chamber?
I wonder if Renarin will combine his powers to “see” with Shallan’s powers, who will project it with Light. If so, maybe they can discover who murdered the guy from Saberial’s camp and prove it to everyone.
@177: They found a lost abandoned city deserted for reason unknown to them… Bodies have started to pile up… There is only one logical answer:
There is an alien among them :-O
Adolin or Shallan will find their nest. Renarin is acting weird because he has already been possessed.
iRemedy@158 I’m so surprised that you are the only one to use the word revenge, which was my immediate thought on the copycat murder. Ialai and Sadeas’ men are starting a war in the shadows against Dalinar and everyone standing with him.
@180 Agreed!
I must have missed something. Are there Ghostbloods in Urithuru? I think Shallan will guess eventually but Renerin knows Adolin murdered Sadeas.
I suppose Kaladin will be the champion for the Radiants’ side.
Alright, something has been bugging me about Renarin and I’m going to come out and say it. Renarin is the man with 9 shadows.
I read this as “So you’re robbing me now…” In some ways, Roshone seems oddly subdued.
I’m uncertain if I am understanding and applying the concept correctly, but could the Champion’s nine shadows be cognitive representations of the nine Heralds that abandoned the Oathpact?
@184 I like the idea of the 9 shadows. Could very well be a connection as there is still a lot we don’t understand between the connection with the different realms.
Has anyone else wondered if if Lirin is hiding something from his past? In TWOK Kaladin mentioned that his father dabbled with predicting highstorms. This was something that Shallon discovered about Amaram. Could Lirin be a member of the Sons of Honor?
goddessimho @@@@@ 182: This happens right before Pattern has his “come to Jesus” meeting with Shallan:
Excerpt From: Sanderson, Brandon. “Words of Radiance.” Tom Doherty Associates. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
I don’t believe anyone has brought this up yet, but it appeared to me that there was evidence that Lirin may be somewhere along the path to becoming a Knights Radiant himself. My reasoning is as follows:
1) The idea first popped into my head when reading the exchange between Kaladin and Lirin while they were working on the young patient whose arm had been speared by a piece of wood. Kaladin’s assessment of the wound was that it “didn’t look good” and that they should cauterize the wound and perhaps remove the arm at the elbow. From the first couple of books, we know that Kaladin is a very good, perhaps great, field surgeon. Therefore, I think we should trust his instincts about what needs to be done. We also know from Kaladin’s flashbacks in WoK that Lirin is a hardened surgeon who once says in Chapter 10 of WoK that “a wise surgeon must know what to remove and what to save.” I thought it was interesting that Lirin seemed to disagree with Kaladin’s assessment of the wound. In fact, he called Kaladin’s suggestions “extreme.” The idea popped into my head that perhaps Lirin has learned to heal with Stormlight (similar to the poor shoe maker who Darkness kills in an Interlude in an earlier book) and wants to heal the boy in this fashion away from prying eyes. The more I thought about this, the more small tidbits of evidence I found…
2) Lirin’s determination to stay in Hearthstone when Kaladin suggests he take them to Urithiru. He says that “these people will need me.” Part of what he means is certainly his competence as a surgeon, but perhaps he is also referring to more. A shardblade? A particularly effective way of healing people? It depends on how far along the path to becoming a Radiant he is.
3) Syl’s comments about her aunt and remembering Kaladin’s parents from Chapter 6. Why would Syl remember Kaladin’s parents? We know that the spren have been seeking out humans to bond with for awhile. Perhaps an honorspren scouted Lirin for Radiant potential in the past and that information has been shared between all honorspren. Perhaps it was the aunt that Syl referred to that did the scouting of Lirin.
4) Lirin seems to fit the profile of a Radiant. He seems to be a genuinely good person as we saw repeatedly in his dedication to the people of Hearthstone in WoK. There has also been lots of references to the fact that the spren seek out people who have been “broken” or have gone through something traumatic in their past (we got lots of this in the Shallan Kaladin chasm-highstorm-sleepover from WoR). At one point Lirin believed he had lost both of his sons to a cause he hated (war) which certainly qualifies as traumatic.
5) Lirin and Hesina’s reaction at the end of the chapter when Kaladin reveals he is a Radiant. Lirin reacts with shock and Hesina with awe. There are different ways to interpret this, but one could certainly be Lirin realizing that he is not alone as someone who can manipulate stormlight (not to mention the realization that his son may not be the killer he had previously assumed).
6) And lastly… maybe Radiance runs in the family? I wouldn’t rule out Hesina or Kaladin’s baby bro either…
Sorry this was long… really long… I just couldn’t help myself.
@165 over the past few chapter releases several comments have talked about Adolin needing to break in order to bond a Spren. I’m not sure thats how it works.
The only thing that I remember from Stormlight Archive that might support that is the bit where Syl says “they [refering to the radiants] were all broken silly.”
oh actually and now that I think about the order that Tefts family belong to believed that you had to be in mortal danger for powers to manifest, so that might also support a required breaking theory.
Ryan @189: there are several Words of Brandon (WoB), that state the soul of a person must have cracks in it before they can bond a spren.
Now what is considered a cracked or broken soul is open to interpretation. All of us are still wondering what cracked Shallan soul prior to age 11 (?), since she already had Pattern in order to kill her mother.
Trauma, as suffered by Kaladin is one way.
EDIT: Please think about the other ways there are to crack / break a soul.
Sorry, I think the first way I worded it, people thought I believed trauma was the only way. Which is not the case.
Aerona @68:
I don’t know if your question has been answered among the comments I haven’t yet read, but I’ll address it just in case, before I forget.
I think this almost certainly refers to Amaram. In Kaladin’s eyes, Amaram was willing to murder over 10 of his own soldiers, and sell one of them who had just saved his (Amaram’s) life, so he could cover up his theft of shards. That, to Kaladin, represents the pure embodiment of evil.
@188: How about this statement from Lirin above in Chapter 7, when he tells Kal they are surgeons: “Let others rend and break; we must not harm others.” I don’t know, but that certainly has the feel of a KR oath…
Maybe he is in one of the orders that has regrowth. However, that wouldn’t jive with the whole “Syl’s aunt” being the one who bonds him, because that would make him a Windrunner like Kaladin, and they don’t have access to regrowth (to my knowledge). As far as I know, only the Edgedancers do, but I remember reading somewhere that each order has access to 2 powers or something? I don’t know, can’t remember. But anyways, yeah, I can see Lirin being a KR, just not a windrunner.
I rarely comment on grammar as it is mostly pointless, but I have to say something about this awkward piece of writing; perhaps Peter can note it for future revisions.
The underlined sentence is awkward, and does not convey the exact meaning the author intends. I would suggest that what the author actually intended to convey is:
Anyone else reckon Renarin was shifty enough to have killed this guy to cover for Adolin?
@193 Yes, I agree with you revision on that as well. In fact, when I first came to that very part, I had to re-read that particular sentence twice, back-and-forth, in order to clarify its meaning.
I do find your revision to be much better.
One of the things I find most striking about these early chapters is the complete marginalization of the King by Dalinar. I mean, Dalinar is not even making a pretense of consulting the King by having Elhokar present at these meetings. I think this a major blunder by Dalinar, and could have unfortunate consequences.
Alisonwonderland @193 – It’s a stylistic choice – and as a gamma reader, it’s the kind of thing I wouldn’t even bother to note in the comments. Your suggestion might be more grammatically functional … but it also goes clunk on the ear, IMO. Personal preference, I suppose, but there it is. FWIW, I looked back at the notes, and not one of the nearly 60 gamma readers had trouble with that line. It’s just you. ;)
(ETA: before anyone gets mad, you need to know that Alisonwonderland and I go back a few years around these parts. He knows when I’m yanking his chain. Mostly.)
@193 Agreed. The phrasing was a bit, shall we say… maladroit?
I’ll see myself out.
@196 Again, agreed, but I can see why they wouldn’t necessarily think of Elkohar. That was Radiant business. Of course, that means that Adolin and Navani shouldn’t have been there either, so there’s that. And it will almost certainly bite him in the ass.
Last week, several comments made much about the fact that Dalinar thought he saw something familiar in the eyes of Odium’s Champion, and this brought forth lots of speculation about whether Dalinar had actually recognized the OC, and whether he might be Adolin, Renarin, Elhokar, Sadeas, etc. This tells us that, not only did Dalinar not recognize the OC, he is not even sure if the creature is human, and suspects the OC might be a parshman.
@@@@@ Emliy, 137: Duralumin! Thanks, I had forgotten what it was called. It’s pair, that may be similar to what a Bondsmith can do, is Nicrosil, which allows a user to enhance someone they are touching.
Here is a random theory: The whole writing on the wall in WoR seemed like perhaps Renarin was doing them in some sort of mesmerized frenzy state. Perhaps, not having really mastered his radiant powers, he somehow harnessed all of Adolin’s feelings and in some sort of mesmerized frenzy state went out and committed the same murder, but doesn’t exactly remember it.
This theory is just a complete stab in the dark (no pun intended…..) on my part, but i’d be interested to know what others think.
EDIT: WOW! DOUBLE HUNNY! I wasn’t even trying. The last comment I had refreshed was in the earlier 190s…(I tend to channel GRR Martin in terms of writing speed when I write comments…..don’t judge me)
I’m not sure what to think about who the second murderer is, but something triggered my memory of the king saying he was surrounded by shadows that he could see until Kaladin came and banished them. It was in WoR when the king was pissed about Kaladin demanding the duel, I think. The king is weak physically (from being wounded) and temprementally, has been haunted by literal shadows, is now in a creepy abandonded fortress, and is being completely sidelined by Dalinar et al. The evil champion with 9 shadows? I could totally see Elokhar in that role.
Hi Alice, no offense taken here, of course.
But I’m really surprised that not one of your beta readers recognized what I see as a problem with the sentence. I don’t think it is a stylistic choice, and I believe the sentence in the text has a different meaning in English for someone who does not already know what the author is trying to say. Let me try and explain how I see it.
(1) …. terrors transformed from common servants.
What the word ‘from’ does is to suggest that certain things, qualities, whatever … from common servants, were transformed into ‘terrors’. It leaves the impression that the common servants themselves remained, but something from them was somehow transformed to become ‘terrors’. Think about it. If I told you “we have seen … terrors transformed from trees”, would you think the trees were what changed?
(2) … common servants transformed into terrors.
The common servants changed to become ‘terrors’. Bingo, this is what the author wanted to say.
The reason most of us probably don’t see the difference may be that we know the backstory, we know the author’s intention, so our brains automatically interprete the first sentence to mean the second. But I would bet that if we put the two bald sentences in front of an English professor and asked him/her to interprete each sentence separately, he/she would come up with what I show above.
One last thought before bed: does anyone else see the Hamlet connection with Elhokar? Obv. Dalinr didn’t murder Galivar, but it overlays just enough to be an interesting perspective on Elhokar.
I’m not sure why there are all the suggestions that Ialai suspects Adolin directly. There is no indication that anyone (bar possibly Renarin) have any inkling it was him.
I agree with the suggestions that she is the most likely culprit to be the mastermind behind the copycat killing as she is probably one of only a few who will actually miss Sadeas. I further suspect that she believes a member of Dalinar’s forces (including members of bridge four) might be responsible given Sadeas abandonment of Dalinar’s forces on the tower.
But it is bit of a leap at this stage to think that she believes either Dalinar or Adolin might have been personally responsible.
Well, we already know that, but Brandon Sanderson DOES know very well how to to a heart-busting hero scene!!! Kaladin! That blade summoning! “TIÉ” we would say in Italian. Whoa!
And that ‘little’ final flight… that’s an epic exit!
Alisonwonderland @202 It does seem a little awkward, but I don’t recall any confusion reading it. I think it’s because it is a spoken sentence and it works well in the context of Kal’s monologue, “Surely you’ve guessed? Weather in turmoil and terrors transformed from common servants? Other crazy thing A? Other crazy thing B?” I think it works better with terrors coming first. That’s how I imagine it would be spoken with the emphasis on terrors, not common servants.
Also, you get better alliteration that way. :)
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 190
Actually I was at GenCon in August and attended all Brandon Sanderson talks, One of he statements he made was when souls are open magic gets in. Anything that expands the soul. Tragedy is one way to open the soul but not the only one.
I believe that was in response to a question about people being broken and gaining powers
200. stormbrother – I like your theory about Renarin doing the second murder in some sort of fit or trance. My first thought was that Renarin did it.
But that is because Sanderson has done a great job of making me feel very creepy about Renarin and his spren. So I am probably totally wrong. He his so good at misdirection. It is always something I don’t expect except when it isn’t.
I think the chapter headings are Renarin written after the events of this book, it’s possible its Dalinar but Renarin is my top choice now. In earlier chapters the author said “I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims.” that actually rules out Jasnah to me. Jasnah is already a SELF proclaimed heretic so why would anyone else be claiming she’s one or looking for further proofs? But Dalinar telling everyone God is dead while still trying to keep to the religion itself and saying their is a higher God would be seen as herecy by others who may be looking for further proof, and everyone whom he closely associates with or who says they agree with him might also be seen as heretics. Then in these chapters the author says “Certainly, some who saw further than I did thought I had fallen.” I’m not entirely certain what they mean yet about seeing further but it sounds like they meant seeing into the future and that’s pretty much Renarins thing. He then says “I did not die. I experienced something worse.” So I think he becomes the 9 shadows guy.
@83 Andrew HB
On what Kaladin meant when he said he seized Sly and spoke the Words and accepted his place. I would have said he was talking about revealing himself to the town, but the Words was a capital W. So the third ideal would fit the best, but I don’t think at that point he was thinking about how people would treat him differently. So I am back to the town reveal.
Oh also I think Iriali was behind the second murder however I don’t think it’s about her trying to find Sadeas’ murderer but about getting revenge and hurting Dalinars house. She has to figure somebody from Dalinars camp did it (because duh) and she probably doesn’t care who she just wants to destroy the whole house in vengeance. She does that by first separating him from his allies and that starts when all the other high princes start finding their men murdered but nobody from Dalinars camp ever gets touched. That’ll put a lot of fear and suspicion on them and drive a wedge between Dalinar and the other high princes, and she won’t have to do anything to separate him from the king as Dalinars already did that himself by pushing him aside. Whisper the right things at the right time and Dalinar has a bunch of new enemies, and we already established in WoR that this is what Iriali is good at.
Alisonwonderland @202. When I first listened to that part, I had to back up the recording (Audible), and listen to it a couple of more times. For me it seemed to lack cohesion. However I also have some learning disabilities and one of them is that I sometimes hear things oddly, see and say things oddly as well. As an example instead of saying Home and Farm, (which is the name of an insurance company), I have actually said Foam and Harm. Stuff like that. So at times things I read, see and hear will not have the flow that I think they should have. At times it can have humorous effects, as several other family members have this same kind of learning disability, other times it is a pain in the posterior! :)
Your explanation makes reasonable sense to me…
Okay, so I usually don’t have much to add to these conversations, but on my reread I noticed that Shallan references a pig. I think on my first read I didn’t notice it because it’s just such a common phrase for us.
As far as I can remember, horses and chickens are pretty much the only ‘normal’ animals living on Roshar that we’ve heard about, and the latter aren’t commonly known since they live in the West mostly. Does this mean pigs, as we know them, are also native fauna? Or perhaps at some point they were and the term is still used as a figure of speech… Definitely may be one of my next random, unimportant questions to ask Brandon, along with “What would happen if one were to attempt to Lash a body of water?”
@@@@@208: Jennifer – I agree. Sorry, I think my first comment was unclear. With the expanded soul comment, that could imply that Shallan’s mere artistic talent was enough to open her soul for Pattern. Which is much more reassuring than thinking there was more hidden abuse.
@@@@@ 212: Leaf on the Wind – nice name.
@@@@@214: There are pigs on Roshar. There has been mention of hogshide belts (Veil’s outfit) and other items.
There was even a comment in WoR or by Peter that made me research cheese made with pig’s milk.
Melbu Frahma @@@@@ 205 Here is my thinking on why Ialai might suspect Adolin. Her husband abandoned Dalinar’s regiment, fighting group, however you want to word it, on the plains in the heat of battle and thousands died. Dalinar’s immediate circle plots to arrange the duel between Adolin and Sadeas,so they can hopefully have some sense of justice, (my personal take), and then Sadeas worms his way out of that, (and I apologize for insulting the worm), it is more than obvious because of how the duel was done that Sadeas had some underhanded influence with that setup.
While I do believe that both Sadeas and Ialai could be the poster children for “Psychopaths R Us” and that she has no sense of guilt whatsoever, I think she took a stab in the dark, (pun intended) and set up Adolin. Her network of underlings is far reaching.
@215 Dang, don’t remember the hog’s hide for some reason, but the pig’s cheese rings a bell. Thanks!
One other thing, I’ve noticed a lot of comments about the scout woman looking through Shallan’s sketchbook, seemingly without permission and with no repercussions. However, Shallan did hand it to the woman while she packed up her bag. To most people I would think that somewhat counts as permission. Now, said action may be bold for a darkeyes, but the ordeal didn’t strike me as particularly noteworthy. Then again, it is Sanderson we’re talking about, so what do I know? ;)
Drydor @217. You make a valid point and as always we are reacting in real world ways to a fantasy situation. For me personally, the issue again comes back to boundaries. Surviving abuse changes a person. When your boundaries have been almost nonexistent as a child, it does make a big difference. Your boundaries as an adult are very strong and high and you respect the boundaries of others as well.
Yes, Shallan did hand the scout her sketchbook but that does not give her license to go through it. Writing journals and artistic journals are the private thoughts, visions, memories, and views of the person who creates them. I can’t see that Shallan would be okay with this, especially given that some of the drawings were of a very personal nature.
It comes down to being open and vulnerable to someone you don’t know, possibly a complete stranger. You learn that you must protect the self to survive, and as we have read, Shallan is able to do that.
To me the equivalent would be if you handed an acquaintance your wallet because you happened to have it in your hand, in order to do something else, and that person opened it and started looking through it.
On Renarin being Creepy: I have read a lot of comments giving the most nefarious intentions to Renarin: either he knows Adolin killed Sadeas (how could he know, he sees, as far as we can tell, he does not read minds: neither Stump nor Ym read minds, but they had an uncanny ability to detect lies), either he killed the second man (why would he even do this, how is it even protecting Adolin and moreover why would he act without getting proof first, even if he suspects Adolin which seems far-fetched, he can’t know without a doubt), either he is Odium’s Champion.
I have done some reflecting and I think we need to put some things into perspective. We aren’t currently reading Renarin’s mind: we are reading what Shallan sees and thinks of Renarin. We already know she finds him creepy, she said so in WoR: he unnerves her for one reason or another. My guess is she just can’t read him, her usual tactics do not work on him, therefore she has no idea how to interact with him which makes him appear, to her eyes, creepy.
But is Renarin really creepy?
Well… No. Not really. What has he done? He stood up next to his father which I read as foreshadowing of him taking up the place as Dalinar’s right hand man (what it means for Adolin, I have no idea). He gaped when Dalinar mentioned Odium’s champion and his nine shadows: likely he has seen it in his visions, but never thought his father did too which is likely why he was surprised. He then walked behind Shallan and it spooked her. He looked at the crime scene without saying a word. I mean, Renarin, no matter what else he may be, is observant. Is it really telling us something to read Shallan thinking: “Oh my Renarin looks at the crime scene with intensity.”? No, not really. All it tells us is Renarin was looking at it, thinking. Is he really thinking about his brother? We do not know. Adolin was acting weird and while Dalinar/Navani may not have noticed, it may be Renarin did but I sincerely doubt he knows anything substantial about the murders. Why would he even suspect Adolin?
Thus, I think we currently are putting way too much stuck into Shallan’s observations concerning Renarin. Renarin knowing Adolin murdered Sadeas is terribly far-fetched: while we do not know how exactly Truthwatcher powers work, we have seen two others. None we mind readers and so far, Renarin’s visions have been of future doom, not of whom murdered one insignificant highprince. Sadeas is not important, he is an annoyance, a distraction Dalinar cannot afford at the moment. It doesn’t add up Renarin had somehow “seen” Adolin killed Sadeas nor does it add up he somehow “read his mind” and figure it out. At best, he noticed Adolin is acting weird, but A LOT of reasons could explain why Adolin is disturbed and we can bet NOBODY will think the root cause is he murdered Sadeas. Remember? Adolin is perfect. Adolin cannot lie. Adolin has no secrets. And I could add, Adolin is too simple-minded and one-layered to have secrets. They won’t see it, even if it is right into their face, because, to them, it is a near impossibility.
It also does not add up he killed some random man. While I have no doubt Renarin is able to kill, why would he kill an innocent man taken inside an army allied to his father? Are we really saying kind and nice Renarin would kill innocent people in a twisted attempt to divert the attention out of Sadeas’s dead body? And to which end? How is it even helping Adolin? Everyone was ready to forget Sadeas, the investigation would have likely ended up in a dead end, Adolin would have gotten away with it. Sure, he would have had a dark secret to keep for the remaining of his life, but nobody would look twice. Now, they are looking. Now, they are doing something about it. Now, they really want to find the murderer. So really, the copycat murder is NOT helping Adolin, it is increasing the pressure on him and it is laying the ground basis for the snare to snap onto his neck.
And it will work. Because Adolin will not be able to withstand the pressure. Because he will not be able to bear innocent people are dying, BECAUSE OF HIM. Especially not allies to his father.
The murders, it is a trap, but it isn’t one being sprung by Renarin. Adolin is likely to entangled himself into his lies, unable to break the image of perfect confidence he built for his family up until he literally cracks. Once he does, he may have lied so much, nobody will believe him anymore: just a prediction.
My thoughts are we should ask ourselves, where was Elhokar and what was he doing? Now, we know he isn’t really injured enough to not be moving around… So what’s up with him? And what is it Dalinar wanted to tell him which would be pleasing?
By looking too much at Renarin because Shallan finds him creepy, we may not be looking at the right place.
Until we have evidence otherwise I’m assuming Elhokar is sulking in his tent. If for no other reason than he won’t have the contacts or influence to cause a lot of trouble. Alethkar is not a healthy enough monarchy that being King is enough in itself to grant much power.
Gepeto. @219
You make very valid points about Renarin and I don’t think he is “Creepy”, and if Shallan IS unable to “read” him, that would tend to make her feel powerless.
My thinking is that we all make assumptions based on words and what those words mean to each of us personally.
You certainly may be right in your assessment of Renarin where Adolin is concerned. He notices his brother’s reactions. It very well may be that he senses Adolin is lying.
As you point out, we do not know the extent of what a “Truthwatchers” powers actually entail, nor to what depth.
The Order’s two Surges: Progression and Illumination
Source: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Truthwatchers
Progression: A series with a definite pattern of advance
Illumination: The degree of visibility of your environment
Source: Wordweb
Since the Surges of the Truthwatchers are “Progression and Illumination,” I see that as yes, Renarin does see future events. I believe that is mentioned in the duel scene in the arena? Since Progression is one of the Surges, is it unreasonable to think that the events leading up to certain catastrophic happenings would be open to him and other Truthwatchers? I think they very well could be and that he is aware of who killed Sadeas and Vedekar Perel.
. Also, since Illumination is the other Surge it would seem to me that would imply that what was hidden is revealed as well. I think those events very well could be open to him, and that he is aware of who killed Sadeas and Vedekar Perel.
I really love reading your comments and appreciate your insight into the chapters thus far.
Do you people think Eshonai will be champion for Odium, me think so, or perhaps Sadeas?
@220: While we do not know what Elhokar is up to, I wouldn’t take it for granted he is merely “sulking in his rooms”.
@221: Thanks :-)
I need to correct something which just occurred to me…
Adolin did not lie.
What lie has he told? Shallan asked him if he new the dead man. He didn’t. She asked him if he knew who did this. He doesn’t.
Nobody asked him about Sadeas precisely and thus Adolin said no lie. No, he did not know Perel and yes he intends to find out whom murdered him. All truths, no lies.
Thus, he said no lie. He was lucky. Nobody asked the right questions. He may be able to dodge them for a long time, if he is careful. He said just enough to take Shallan’s worries out of him, but not so much he would give himself away and, more importantly: he did not lie.
So which lie Renarin has supposedly spotted? All Adolin did is not tell the truth, by not speaking, by remaining quiet. He however told no lie.
All Renarin could have spotted is Adolin acting more emotionally than usual. More jumpy. He’s had quite a roller-coaster so far, so maybe Renarin noticed. Or maybe not, after all, he has his own issues to worry about.
As for how Truthwatcher powers work, I’ll remain on my current position until proven wrong: nothing indicates they have the ability to see future mundane events such as unimportant men being murdered. Nothing indicates they can “see” into other people’s mind, but clues suggest they may be able to detect lie when spoken. Stump implied as much. Back in WoR, Renarin demands Adolin tells him the truth as to why he treats his guards poorly. He claims he will know if he lies except… isn’t it getting social cues such as when someone is lying and when someone isn’t the precise thing autistic individuals out to struggle with?
This being said, it is obvious to me Brandon wants us to think Renarin knows something we don’t, but it doesn’t mean he does. He is distracting us from the real players into this sordid affair.
Another plot point very few people have mentioned: the more I think of it, the more I am convinced Adolin’s injured wrist is important. It will play a role. We should pay attention to it.
Nemanja @@@@@ 222. I have wondered that about Eshonai myself. I hope not although I don’t see the Parshendi as ultimately being the victors.
Now that I think about it, I don’t know if Warform is a permanent state of being for them or if they can revert back to earlier forms. I don’t think they can but I honestly don’t remember reading anything about it. Warform is so aggressive, I don’t see Eshonai ever wanting to revert even if she could.
Wait, now that I think about the fact that Spren are used in the change to Warform, it may not be possible for them to revert. I remember reading that when they are destroyed in Warform that some sort of spren leave their bodies. Although Rlain is seen in Warform back among the bridgemen and also at Urithiru as well, if memory serves me correctly
I actually have a lot of empathy for them as a species of beings, and the Spren as well. All they have been is fodder to move the war machine forward in its swath of death and destruction and slaves. While I do like many of the “humans” in these epic books most of the characters do not show themselves to be great individually, and certainly not collectively. We all have feet of clay and are imperfect beings but some take their imperfections to heights that are horrendous.
I enjoyed Kaladin’s chapter a lot and it was indeed a pleasant surprise that everything was written in such a concise way, without any unnecessary protractions and complications. However, his pledge to “protect them all” and particularly his young brother felt a bit ominous to me. If it had been some other author, I would have expected them all to die horribly and even as is, how much can Kaladin actually protect the inhabitants of Hearthstone? He’ll have to leave eventually. It is a Desolation and lots of people will die no matter what he does. Historically, majority of people died during such, even. Also, why didn’t he tell the people that the might come to them and pick them, too?
BTW, given the ineptness of Roshone’s guards, should we assume that _none_ of the people who volunteered/were drafted into the army at the same time as Tien and Kaladin returned home? Kal could have mustered out after his 4 years were up, but chose not to. Did everybody else die? Or is army life more attractive, despite occasional mortal danger?
And why was Kaladin thinking of going “home” after scouting out/dealing with local transformed parshmen? Wasn’t he supposed to check on Kholinar, too?
So, Shallan didn’t yet overcome the trauma of having to aknowledge that she killed her mother in self-defense. It is psychologically believable, but will clearly lead to her resisting the combat training. It didn’t occur to Dalinar to order it yet, but I imagine that the necessity will become obvious soon.
“Creepy Renarin” – I am not sure that the intense look that Shallan felt upon herself was actually from him. Wasn’t he standing close behind her? Wouldn’t staring at the back of her head be very awkward from that position and kinda purposeless? IMHO, it was somebody else observing her. Kinda interesting how Renarin manages to move around so stealthily. Does he have charged spheres and is just instunctually using Illumination/Lighweaving in this way, or is it a physical skill and he would have made an excellent scout? He clearly noticed that Adolin’s reaction was off, too.
And yes, the staged murder is most likely Ialai, but I wouldn’t discount one of the secret societies doing it to obscure their responsibility and to throw their rivals off the track by making 2 unrelated murders look related. Ditto anybody who’d have motive to kill the second fellow. Also, it is helpfuly pointed out in the text that there was a lengthy fight before the victim was overcome, so I very much doubt that it could have been Renarin. And why would he do it, anyway?
So, where is Amaram? He was among the first people making for Urithiru from the camps and he was bringing “Taln” with him and intending to contact/confront Dalinar ASAP. Hatham has already arrived, so… Could Amaram have had something to do with the murder, somehow?
Gepeto. @219 – For some reason we seem to be unable to communicate. I have never believed Renarin himself has “nefarious intentions” or is creepy. It is his spren and his powers that are unsettling.
We have so little information, but in all the manifestations of his power, Renarin does not appear to have control of himself. 1. Writing countdown on walls. 2. Dropping sword and weeping in duel. 3. Yelling and writing on walls at oathgate.
In truth we do not even now if he is using his powers or even if he remembers any of it himself. All we know is he is not in total control. Perhaps similar to the Stormfather taking control of Shallans power and perhaps for Renarin much worse.
With Renarin it maybe that when he tries to use his Truthseeker powers, he cannot remember clearly what he even does or sees or is unable to speak about it. I find these possibilities creepy
@223 Adolin lied by omission and Pattern knew it, which is why he was buzzing. It’s a different kind of lie, but one that pattern seems to like/find interesting. Pattern’s reaction alone should give Shallan a hint that Adolin isn’t telling the truth.
RyuMagoo@188, First Timer@192
Great theory. I’m onboard. Lirin will be (is?) a Truthwatcher like Ym with healing abilities he has been using as a surgeon, perhaps without understanding what he’s been doing up to this point (like Stump), thus his optimism for a patient Kaladin deems in need of extreme measures like an amputation. I said Truthwatcher because Edgedancers are too much the warrior type for him, but perhaps he’ll be a super slick field medic who never kills, just retrieves the wounded. Awesomeness abounds!
Gepeto @@@@@ 223. Very good points! Adolin did not lie at all.
After going back and rereading Chapter 9 again, it doesn’t really say that Renarin spotted any lie. It is mentioned that, “He watched Adolin with unblinking sapphire eyes.” Then we have, “He was always a little strange, but he seemed to know something she (Shallan) didn’t.”
Then next sentence we have,”On her skirt, Pattern hummed softly.” All of which led me to believe that Adolin had indeed lied. We all know how Pattern is about lies and it appears that someone in that room told a lie that excited Pattern. Is that a reasonable presumption?
I certainly understand and respect your position on Truthwatcher’s powers and abilities. We don’t know. This is part of why I love this forum. It keeps us all in the game, so to speak and widens our understanding and piques our interest, and for me, it gives me a fuller perspective of the characters and events. I love it!
My biggest thing is that I am going to have to start watching for those red herring that Brandon has in some of his scenes. :)
I also agree with you since Brandon has mentioned twice that Adolin’s hand is still bothering him. That seems very significant.
Another thing, The chapter heading for Chapter 9 is “The Threads of a Screw” and I have to believe that at some point in the immediate storyline this will be significant. Don’t know in what way exactly and the one thought I do have seems unlikely however I will add it here just for fun.
It is significant enough that Shallan notices it and her character describes in a bit of detail what it looks like and how it runs within that room. What if the Threads of the Screw are some kind of an opening mechanism into or out of the bathing chamber? There are bound to be all kinds of secret passages in Urithiru and possibly shortcuts to other rooms. What fun!
I have the impression Pattern finds using truth to deceive to be particularly delicious. Or maybe it’s using a lie to tell the truth, like using a metaphor, for instance.
ParnassusReads @@@@@ 227.
I too thought of that as I was commenting Gepeto @@@@@ 223. This gets in such sticky areas in real life. Realistically it may be that is what Pattern picked up on. But it has also been mentioned in WoK that part of why Pattern is there is to learn about human behavior. (Sorry I don’t have chapter info. I use Audiobooks and at some point later will get the books to read). So I don’t know if Pattern would perceive that as a lie, you know? Since no one actually asked Adolin, “Did you kill Sadeas?”
I also believe a lie of omission is a lie. It is a matter of morality and intent, I think. Some people believe that if a person isn’t smart enough to ask the correct questions, it is not a lie to withhold information. There are shades of grey in the world…
Nemanj @222. Interesting theory! Yes, Sadeas is dead, but Darkness brought Szeth back to life to serve him so perhaps we have not seen the last of Sadeas!
RE: Cracks
When I first read the description of what Teft’s family were doing to try to bring back the Radiants, I thought to myself “You know, that would work on Scadrial.” Mistings get their powers after going through traumatic events. Breakings. So I wondered if that group was founded by a Worldhopper.
Also, in Secret History, Kelsier was able to communicate with people who had “cracks” in their souls. This is the most direct line to how cracks in the soul might facilitate Radiants getting their powers. High Spren, like Kelsier during the events of Secret History, are special Shardic entities (one a Splinter, and one a Sliver) who reside completely in the Cognitive Realm. The crack is what allows access to the person in question.
It makes me want to look for what else may constitute a cracked soul in the other Cosmere books. The Divine Breath in Warbreaker, which is a Splinter, is only available to Returned. I’d say death might constitute a crack in the soul, eh? But what about regular Investiture of Breath? How does that fit? Or access to the Dor in Elantris? Its been too long since I read that. Where are the cracks that transform them into Elantrians?
Funny fleeting thought I had while while reading chapter 7: After several days of travel, I really hope Kaladin washed his hands before handing the scissors and bandages over to Lirin.
It’s too bad that Shallan hasn’t found a library of ancient texts yet. I was looking forward to these texts answering all our burning questions about radiants, desolations, spren, the recreance, etc. I have a feeling these texts will conveniently stay missing for a while. :D
Continued from @233:
So, piggy backing on that thought, what if the mechanism for High Spren “crossing over” involves them squeezing through the “cracks” or openings within people’s souls? And that this process is what forms the Nahel Bond?
Could squeezing through this crack be what causes the Spren to lose its memories, and inflict so much pain?
That thought leads me to Windle. Who said the transition for him was easier than expected, and obviously retains more of his memory than Syl or Pattern did. Could this be because Lift is, um, a bit crazier than the others we’ve seen? Her soul is cracked a little more thoroughly than Kaladin’s or Shallan’s, so Windle was able to squeeze through without as much trauma?
@FarDareisMaiGrandma 232 Thankfully Sadeas won’t be returning. Darkness was only able to bring Szeth back because his soul has not left the body. We see Sadea’s body earlier in the book and by that time it would be to late to revive him., again thankfully.
I’m pretty confident Adolin isn’t going to end up taking the fall for the subsequent murders; people just aren’t going to believe he suddenly became a serial killer, certainly not the sort to use a signature method and pose his victims. His specific hatred of Sadeas isn’t exactly a secret.
As for the motive, intensifying the investigation into the original murder is possible, but unlikely. Sadeas was a Highprince, and his death was going to have to be thoroughly investigated anyway; more murders are just going to make it harder to find the original killer. It could be intended to psychologically torment Adolin, but only if the new killer knows (likely supernaturally) that it’s him and not someone who would pretty much just shrug at knowing they have a copycat. Plus someone doing that would absolutely write a message in blood. I suspect the imitation is just a distraction; the actual motive is to sow paranoia and murder officers. I mean, if they just needed bodies to turn up, they’d probably have an easier time picking off some darkeyed soldiers rather than hunting officers. The command structure is already in tatters from the fighting; they can’t afford a string of assassinations.
blkphoenix2112@236:
Through that method, at least. We have seen a number of examples of Resurrection in the Cosmere that might work. But you should be right. There’s no way he’s coming back in that body. and he probably won’t be coming back at all.
I think I now know how Kaiden was feeling in jail as I’m in Tor world stretching my hand out trying to reach the next Tuesday. I CAN ALMOST REACH IT
Devisor @@@@@ 239. Love your comment! So funny, I know how that feels!
Did anyone else have a hard time with the soldiers calling Kaladin “Brightlord”? It feels so wrong! Oh, well, I just have to get used to It.
@228 Rccampbe: Lirin as an Edgedancer sounds wonderful!
Adolin: This is gong to be bad. You either kill a Shardbearer or you let him go if he commits a crime. I think maybe Adolin will run away if he thinks he will be executed.
@241:
When the Shardbearer is your son, and you are Dalinar Kholin, you may be able to convince your son to unbond his Blade.
Wow! so many comments on these previewed chapters. I may be repeating some expressed thoughts, but here goes. I find it odd that Navani judges the corpse to lie exactly as they found Sadeas. There were only a limited number of people with Dalinar when Sadeas’ body was brought to his attention. They then removed the body to another room for closer examination. Either one of those in attendance did the 2nd slaying, or they gave over sufficient details for the murderer to duplicate that killing, or someone was spying on the proceedings. If the 3rd supposition is correct, then Ialai may still be the instigator of the 2nd slaying since she was noted for her spying activities. If the 1st supposition is correct then we have a mystery with even more complications for the story.
I agree with the earlier commentor that the phrasing about Jasnah having searched Urithiru in the hope of finding some ancient books or documents that would shed light on the Desolation and Voidbringers is misleading. She searched the literature for the location of Urithiru – she hadn’t yet gotten there, as far as we or Dalinar and co. know,
Drygdor @214 & 217 – This made me laugh… I did exactly the same thing on the WoR beta. “Hold it. Where did the [something-or-other] come from? We know about horses and chickens, but does Roshar have pigs?” … and then was reminded that we saw the Hearthstone pigkeeper in TWoK as well as seeing the huntmaster use hogs for bait in the chasmfiend hunt (chapter 10-12 or so). You’re in good company — depending on how you feel about my company, of course. ;)
Gepeto @219 – FWIW, we’re told back in TWoK that many people find Renarin “unnerving” or “calculating,” primarily because they really don’t know him. He tends to hesitate before he speaks, and to most people it seems odd; I suspect they attribute to him the motivations that they would have themselves! And Shallan, who we know is very quick to say the first thing into her head, would find his manner very foreign to her own nature. Of course, she did this back in WoR, several times thinking of Renarin as “creepy” or “whiny.”
That said, I totally agree with you on Renarin’s lack of creepiness. We as readers should know how very much of an outsider perspective Shallan’s is: the people who know him well love him very much and don’t find him the least bit uncanny. Readers should be picking up on cues, of course, but we need to remember the stated reasons that certain characters react negatively to Renarin, and shouldn’t be overly influenced by that.
Obviously I can’t comment on what Renarin may or may not be able to see, but I think it’s worth mentioning that “we’ve never seen anyone do that” isn’t an argument against any ability at this stage. None of our Radiants are very practiced at what they do, so we can be pretty sure we haven’t seen the full extent of the capability of any of the Surges when used by a master. The closest we’ve come so far is watching Jasnah use her Soulcasting abilities. She’s pretty advanced in that one.
Spiritwalker51 @221 –
Where in … Damnation did they get that? I’d like to see a source for using Illumination in that sense as applied to Rosharan Surgebinding.
Spiritwalker51 @224 – The Parshendi can change forms any time they want, as long as there’s a highstorm and they can find the right spren. Or at least they could, prior to accepting stormform; now, we don’t know.
@244 From the interludes, I think the main question is if they could choose to switch forms. They don’t seem to be themselves when in storm form.
RE the unknown author. Until we have positive proof I am withholding judgement. But I believe it is the original Sunmaker because a man writing the book would certainly lead the women readers thinking he was a heretic, and he was probably seen as a heretic at the time because he brought down the Hierocracy. As to the near death experiences and touches with Shadesmar, who knows what inspired him at age 17 to unite the kingdoms and completely change Vorinism but if my theory is correct we will find out through the course of this book.
@245 I think they can choose their form in some ways in that they probably can switch between different voidbringer forms. It’s also possible for them to go back to parshmen form as it said in the interludes that’s how the parshendi abandoned their gods in the first place, but I get the impression it’s very hard and takes a great force of will since after Eshonai changed to storm form there was a small part of her that was screaming against it but unable to affect it.
This is getting good! Kaladin is finally growing up.
Remember what Renarin said when he told his father about being a Radiant “I see things”.
What you reckon he is staring at when they left him in the room where the murder happened… He knows.
@@@@@ several re: Listener forms – If the comments @@@@@224 were intended to mean stormform instead of warform, then yes, there is a question as to whether they could choose to switch back to one of the other non-old-gods-related forms. (What a clunky way to say that! But you know what I mean.) They had dullform, mateform, nimbleform, workform, and warform, which were free of the influence of the old gods. Stormform (and a bunch of others, according to their songs) put them under control of their gods to some extent. Could they choose to switch from one of those gods-controlled forms to a non-controlled form? … Yeah, it doesn’t seem very much like they’d want to, from what we’ve seen so far.
I also liked the original better than the “correction”. Asking someone to judge the grammar in isolation makes no sense. A sentence doesn’t exist in isolation, it can be understood because it is part of a text. Literature often uses unusual grammar to achieve specific effects (like the alliteration here), and spoken language in real conversations is seldom grammatically correct.
Renarin doesn’t necessarily need to use magic to figure out what Adolin’s weird behavior means. Just because Dalinar is blind to Adolin’s weaknesses doesn’t mean Renarin can’t see them, either. He is probably the one who understands Adolin best. That is why he is in a better position to realize what is going on than Shallan who just met him and is too convinced he can’t lie to notice his evasions.
Kaladin probably judges the injury differently from Lirin because he spent years around field surgeons and soldiers, while Lirin worked at home. The battlefield has different needs than a private hospital, where you have more time and better resources.
Do we know if the custom that only women learn to write existed in Sunmaker’s time?
Wetlandernw@249:
But, the Listeners must have switched at some point, while in Odium-influenced forms. The Songs say that a group of the Parshendi ancestors abandoned their Gods by switching to Dullform and hiding, then slowly rediscovered the other four forms. (Nimbleform being recently rediscovered within Eshonai’s lifetime.)
As opposed to the Parshmen, whom I assume were left Sprenless when Odium was defeated. We could refer to them as “Nullform” rather than Dullform.
@250 I am not sure when it happened. I recall Hoid saying something cynical about the custom being written by a woman but I don’t think the time frame was mentioned.
@251 Like Hoid pointed out at the end of WoK, so much comes down to timing. I really want to know what the timeline was for the voidbringer/Parshmen/Parshendi transformations.
I think it’s implied that Parshmen were a deliberate creation and not what normally happens after a Desolation.
@244 Wetlander, I am more than happy with your company, good or otherwise! ;) Glad to know even a pro can miss things.
In regards to Shallan being kinda creeped out by Renarin, I think oftentimes it’s easy to forget how many variables there could be for why she feels that way. I suppose the same goes for pretty much all of our speculations, however. As has been stated, Shallan doesn’t really know him very well (or any of the Kholin’s for that matter). We also know Renarin is on the autism spectrum too while Shallan does not seem to be aware, and, considering the culture, she is probably unfamiliar with some of his particular behaviors. Anyway, I’m on the boat that thinks neither of the Kholin bros will turn evil (I may be somewhat biased there since they remind me of my brother and I hehe) but it’s fun seeing everyone’s opinions and theories on these chapters.
Keep up the good work everyone. Back to lurking…
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 244.
My apology. Those specific meanings are from a dictionary I use, not from any other site. I put the source under the definitions so hopefully no one would be confused. Sorry about that, I should have made it more clear.
My point was that we as readers tend to interpret what we read from a personal frame of reference. My thoughts are this is why we end up with so many different points of view, which is a good thing. It gives us all a wider perspective which helps. At least it helps me.
On the Parshendi being able to change from Stormform, I got that same impression. At this point we don’t know if they can revert back to earlier or different forms.
Wetlandernw @@@@@249.
Yes, I was confusing Warform with Stormform. Thanks.
Will Adolin be acquiring nine shadows through additional murders? The two brothers may also be be turned against each other via a Shallan love triangle. I would hate to see Adolin walk this path and feel Eshonai is the more likely champion.
@165 That’s a very interesting theory First Timer. I mean, who here isn’t dying to find out what Dalinar’s boon is? It would kind of suck if it turns out that Dalinar not being able to remember his wife is actually his Boon, with his curse being something else. It would be very much like BS to lead us on that way though, only to find out its the other way around.
I’d be interested to hear other people’s take on this. I’ve only read the books once through, so maybe there was already something in there that I don’t recall about the boon/curse that would disprove this theory.
I keep getting the impression that Urithiru is an ENORMOUS empty greatshell of some kind. The spiralling nature of the passageways, the “threads of a screw,” the open central shaft, all seem like a gigantic seashell. Shallan seems caught up on figuring it out. She can’t draw it yet. I wonder if that is why. If it is, I have all sorts of questions related to that idea. Crazy sized gemheart? How does it relate to other greatshells? Could it’s death be related to Honor’s?
@186 FarDareisMaiGrandma: Agreed that there is something more going on with Lirin’s reaction to Kaladin as a Shardbearer/Lighteyes. Will be interesting to see the other shoe drop. Wondering if it has anything to do with Syl’s aunt?
Late for the party again. But here are my two cents.
i am glad to finally “see and hear” Shallan. And to see that she and Adolin are interacting as an engaged couple.
i believe that Shallan and Adolin will be able to heal each other for the murders they committed. (I’m using the word murder loosely here. *thinking of the long discussion we had in the WoK re-read). I hope that it will make them closer. Right now, they see each other as perfect. Once they see the imperfections then perhaps they can truly be lovers and not just the puppy love variety which they seem to have at this point in time.
i can’t wait for the next chapters. Brandon is showing he can be a whodunnit writer too. :-) I want to see how this subplot will be resolved
I contend that Ialai (i think that’s how you spell it) is behind the copycat murder. Further, she doesn’t have to suspect Adolin as the culprit for her husband’s murder to have set things in motion. She is continuing the master plan set forth by Sadeas, that’s the destabilization of the royal family. Having a serial killer in the ranks undermines the stranglehold the Kholins have on power in the realm. The princedoms are only loosely united; it wouldn’t take much for prideful highprinces to break away. Rulers shown to be unable to protect their people would do nicely. And it has the added benefit of possibly flushing out her husband’s killer.
A secret society doing the deed only makes sense if there was a witness to the crime (Adolin/Sadeas) we don’t know about. If a secret society knew Adolin was the culprit then they could use this info as leverage on Adolin. That leaves out the Ghostbloods, they already have their hooks into Shallan. The Sons of Honor are on the run with their prize Herald. They will need time to consolidate their new info. I suppose the Diagram could have pulled off this plot but they would have to know first. Besides they seem more focused on killing the Blackthorn than turning his son.
@222
rather, I can see how Eshonai becomes champion for Honor/Cultivation and Adolin Odium’s champion
My first impression regarding the Copycat murder follows along the lines of other ghostblood involvement theories. My twist to it would include direct Iyatil involment, and considering her heritage… the copycat potentially covering up the stealing of someone’s spiritual connection, or identity?!? You know it would be totally like Brandon… so for this theory I suggest HEMALURGY! Convenient? It would pawn this murder off on Adolin once he gets discovered, and a hemalurgic spike to play with
Besides that, could any other cosmere magic systems allow for someone to exactly replicate the original murder?
On another note, I wonder if Dalinar as a bondsmith actually used his abilities to unite both Shallan’s and Renarin ‘s abilities to make the map? After all, right before shallan was “tugged” out of her seat, Renarin promptly stood up (maybe tugged out of his seat) and moved to put a hand on his father…
@263
Throwing Hemalurgy into what’s looking to be a major plot point in this book would involve the type of Cosmere crossover Brandon said he seeks to avoid until at the very least the back 5 of Stormlight if not Era 3 Mistborn. Not very likely, at least not yet.
@265:
I don’t see how Nightblood isn’t a Cosmere crossover on a major plot point so…
AP@235 Windle getting through larger cracks and maintaining more of himself makes for an interesting balance between spren and budding KR. The crazier the Knight, the saner the spren. But our more stable Knights have their work cut out for them with less help from the spren.
Also, I don’t really think I’d call Nightblood part of a main plot point (yet?). I like the crazy theorizing, but Hemalurgy is pretty far down on my probability chart. And perhaps CremLover intended it that way…hard to interpret tone in short comment text.
@17 Justcanthelpmyself & @35 KadesSwordElenor Your comments regarding the apprentice avoiding Kaladin and the baby possibly being hers is a train of thought I agree with, I would add onto it the baby is possibly Kaladin’s.
Her name is Mara, very close to Tarah, she is mentioned twice in WoK. Once while talking to Syl about his failures in ch62 he mentions his failure with her as different than with Tien and his old spearmen. Again in ch63 remembering how she had “coaxed him out of his single-minded dedication” training with a spear.
Could we be seeing the result of a relationship?
Did Tarah seek out Kaladin’s family and start learning how to be a surgeon in Kaladin’s memory after his “death” by Amaram?
@146 Robin Sparkles 907?
@266 Anthony agreed
Cheers
Sndmn
@258 – I love this theory! And man, would that ever be a huge reveal! She finally managed to see it all at once, and realized what it is.. it’s be much like her Revelation with the shattered plains in WoR, but cooler, and possibly much more dramatic :)
I do certainly get the sense that when she finally sees the whole thing, there will be something important that she discovers. Like Brandon is hiding something important from us by not letting her see the building as a whole.
I suppose it could also just be a way of showing us the massive scale of this thing – it’s so huge and mysterious that even Shallan can’t draw it.
on my umpteenth reread of this weeks chapters I had a new thought:
Dalinars vision shows Odiums champion in black armor. We have already seen a character who wears black and is intent on destroying anyone who manifests KR powers. “Darkness” who Szeth says is Nin the Herald of Justice. What if He is Odiums champion and his nine shadows are Szeth and eight other people that he has resurrected? I don’t have my books here to look it up but did he not have several followers in Edgedancer? And I seem to remember that Dalinar has met him. That would account for his seeming familiar. Dalinar seems to remember anyone he has ever met. Perhaps that is is a function of his bond. Or maybe that is just Dalinar being Dalinar.
@256- I have a really hard time seeing Renarin get involved in a love arc with Shallan. I mean, she already has the Kaladin Adolin thing to think about. More importantly though, I think she’s made it super clear that she’s not interested in Renarin. She finds him creepy and whiny, and that seems to be it so far. Even if he did somehow have feelings for her, I don’t think it would take him too long to get the message that she’s not interested.
In regard to the second murder- I, like many here, am of the opinion that Sadeas’ widow was behind it. Though, the Ghostbloods are something to keep in mind. They clearly have some reason for being in Urithiru, and I’m curious to see when they’ll pop up again. I think it’s wonderfully ironic that Adolin has been put on the case for Sadeas’ murderer. As much as I feel bad for Adolin, I just love the situation too much to wish it hadn’t happened.
With all of the political talk of the Azish, I can’t help but be beyond excited for the possibility of Lift interacting with the main cast.
Also, thank you so much, Tor, for allowing us to read these early. And thanks so much to Brandon for doing such an excellent job.
rccampbe @@@@@ 267, AP@@@@@235:
I do not have my books with me, but I believe Wyndle says in the Lyft chapter that his ‘people’ made preparations for his crossing, implying that those preparations allowed him to preserve his memories.
JustanNPC @271
I can’t see Renarin as a love interest for Shallan either. I see the Shallan-Adolin-Kaladin triangle as being predominant. I don’t think that Shallan would even consider Renarin as being in the same league as Adolin and Kaladin.
Personally, I think once she realizes that Adolin killed Sadeas and lied to her, she will feel betrayed and not trust him any longer.
I also see why people might think the Ghostbloods could be responsible. The leader, (whose name escapes me at the moment) could be using it to exert more influence on Shallan by showing her that anyone can be a target within their sites, however I believe that is not the case. I believe the leader is crafty enough to realize that the bond of love Shallan has for her brothers is stronger than any fear he could bring to bear.
I wonder just how much fun the beta readers are having with our speculation about the murder.
Potential plot twist on the murder. A Parshendi in Shadow form.
Noblehunter @274 – Entire shiploads… :D The popcorn consumption is incredible.
I may be completely wrong here. But I always thought that the 9 shadows around Odium’s champion were representing the unmade. I am not sure how many “unmade” there are though. Also any clarification on the unmade would be awesome. I’ve never quite grasped if they are people invested with power by Odium or forces of nature.
Isn’t the battle thrill on Roshar caused by an Unmade?
So, I have never commented here, but one thing I have noticed not brought up by Dalinar’s vision of the champion is the possibility that it could be the Herald (Jezrien I think) which is working for (or at least not in opposition of) Odium revealed in Edgedancer. It would make sense that he would recognize something about him as there are depictions everywhere of the Heralds, and the whole Nine-Shadows thing might be explained there too. He was the leader (King) of Heralds, and 9 of the Heralds betrayed the Oathpact (might explain the apparent non-ten discrepancy of the number of shadows). It might be that Dalinar is seeing new things in his visions as a result of “pulling” on Renarin’s abilities to “See”, and he witnessed some indication of the corruption of the Heralds who betrayed the Oathpact (or at least their leader).
Sorry for the double post. But this theory would also be a nice setup for a clash between Jezrien as Odium’s champion against Kaladin as the Radiant champion. Honor vs. Fallen-Honor.
@273 agreed on most accounts. I say most because honestly, I still don’t know how I expect Shallan to react when she learns of Adolin’s murder and subsequent lies. I can definitely see her being upset. But I also feel like she, as someone who has killed before and kept it secret from the world, has one of the better chances of understanding him. So, I still don’t know where I stand on that. I think it might mostly depend on how she comes to know of it-whether he tells her himself, or he is caught in the lie. I don’t know if that made sense. Basically my opinion is that I don’t yet have an opinion concrete enough to agree or disagree.
But I definitely agree that I can see why people are bringing up the Ghostbloods. I’m just not of the belief that they are behind this particular crime. I feel like they probably already have some sort of design in Urithiru, and Adolin’s murder happened too recently for them to scrap whatever that was- in my opinion. But, I do want them to show up soon. “Want” may be a strong word, as they kind of freak me out-but their parts are always interesting to me.
@276 every time I think I cannot possibly want Oathbringer more than I already do, I’m reminded that you lucky people already know everything, and I want it that much more.
@277 I think I remember hearing that about the Thrill, but don’t recall where. As for the shadows, both the idea of them being the Unmade and of being the Heralds are appealing to me. It makes more sense for the Unmade to be going around with Odium’s champion, but the fact that there are nine of them, and nine Heralds who broke the Oathpact is intriguing. If it’s not one of the two, I’ll be surprised-but knowing how these things tend to go, I’ll probably end up being surprised no matter what ends up happening. Random speculation time, made more random by the fact that I don’t know much at all about the Unmade, but here goes. Do we know if the Unmade have been around since Roshar’s beginning? Because if not, what if the Unmade are directly related to the breaking of the Oathpact? Each Herald who left went on to inadvertently create one of the Unmade from the darkest parts of themselves in a way? I believe in Kaladin’s dream where he rode the storm, the Stormfather said, “The Oathpact is broken.” and then “Odium reigns” as though the two were connected. Though, they could just be connected in that, because it was broken there was no one to challenge Odium. Again, totally random. Feel more than free to disregard. It was just a thought that was “edgedancing” on my mind. Please forgive my ramblings.
@244: Yeah, remembering who’s perspective we are reading is certainly crucial to truly understand the ramifications of the story. I have used this argument so often, within my numerous Adolin relate discussions, in order to debunk pre-conceived notions other readers may have based on how Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar are viewing Adolin. One of my favorite examples being how many readers interpret Shallan saying she finds Kaladin “brilliant” by meaning Adolin is “a simple-minded idiot” whereas truth is, Shallan has her own internal view of what defines intelligence within individuals. Kaladin fits it, not Adolin, but the fact she finds one smarter, on the basis of his ability to indulge in word play combined with the fact he asked a question about her moss drawing, does not mean the other is an idiot. It merely means Shallan doesn’t currently have the capacities to appreciate when and where Adolin has been smart because all she looks for isn’t something he possess.
To quote Asmodean when he was teaching Rand, simply because Moraine is not able to lie does not mean everything she says is true. It merely means she believes it to be true, but it doesn’t however means it is.
I fear the same applies here. Simply because Shallan finds Renarin creepy, for reasons which are personal to her, does not mean he has been acting in any suspicious manner nor does it imply he “knows something”. The same is true about Dalinar seeing Adolin as “steady” and “strong”. How other characters are viewing each other may end up playing a significant role within this book.
I am somewhat ashamed I had not picked up on it earlier.
So while it is true we do not have enough data to confirm as to whether or not Truthwatchers can read minds (or not), I personally feels we are making a serious leap of logic by interpreting Shallan feeling spooked by Renarin as him “knowing Adolin murdered Sadeas”. Mind, it may be he does know, but nothing within this scene leads to this interpretation and the one reason so many readers are thinking of it merely is the fact it has been abundantly discussed before. There is also the fact having one character being able to “read minds” usually doesn’t lent for great narratives (IMHO), so I sincerely hope this isn’t where Brandon is going.
Thus, my current position is while Renarin may have caught on Adolin’s distress, he likely doesn’t know why. The fact the Kholin family views Adolin in a given way is highly likely to have any of them catch on the signs something wrong is happening: when you aren’t looking for something, it is often easy to miss the signs. It is especially true when you are convinced you interpretation of a given individual is spot one perfect and right. You may miss the cues you ought to revise it. The Kholins, Dalinar especially, aren’t ready to face the fact Adolin may not be infallible. They have been ready to face mistakes from Dalinar, from Elhokar, from Renarin, but Adolin? There aren’t going to see it coming, I think.
On Adolin and Shards: One of my very first theory had Adolin loose his Shards sometimes in Oathbringer. I still think this might happen. Whereas WoR showed us Adolin being at the top of his game, being crowned the dueling champion, I fear OB will show what happens to him when he loses his mojo. It has been hinted and foreshadowed Adolin would eventually lose a duel: I think OB might when it will happen.
On Shallan: Shallan loves the illusion she has of Adolin, but can she love the real him? In shorts, can she learn to love the truth hiding within the lie which is Adolin’s facade? I am unsure if she is ready for it as I suspect one of the reasons she loves Adolin merely is because… he is uncomplicated, simple. Or so she thinks. She wants him to be straight-forward, honest, unable to deceive and a little dumb. Can she really love more complex and vulnerable Adolin or will learning the truth break the picture perfect image she had of him thus destroying their relationship?
On Shallan and Renarin as a Ship: It has been the favored theory prior to WoR release: most readers being convinced Shallan would prefer “bookish” Renarin over “jock” Adolin. Turns out they were wrong: Shallan has no patience with Renarin, she finds him creepy and whiny. While she may warm up to him as they get to know each other better, I really think potential romance is out of the loop for these two.
On what Dalinar will Think: Impossible to predict. Readers have argued both ways.
Wow, this is what happens when work heats up for a bit :)
A few initial thoughts.
Chapter 7
-Hah, after all the time spent debating it, it’s fun to see the confirmation of how Syl and Kaladin actually view this. Syl doesn’t really mind, but Kal recognizes he can and should be above some hot headed reactions. And actually, it was nice to read that Kal actually does like the person he is becoming.
-Roshone still seems like a complete, unrepentant jerk to me, to be honest.
-Kind of cool to see how naturally Kaladin takes control and how quick people are to follow him.
-I find Lirin to be a kind of interesting and frustrating character. I really admire his ideals but he’s so rigid in his expectations. But it was interesting to see Hesina’s reaction to the reveal that Kaladin is a KR.
-I am not sure how I view the sibling – I didn’t catch it at all from the previous dialogue (the way they talked about some THING kept throwing me off) and a lot of times a new baby is a jump the shark moment so…we’ll see how that goes. Lirin especially seems oddly cold about it so I do wonder if there is some other secret regarding the baby’s parentage.
-“The lady’s permission” – ha. I like what they did with her, although on one hand I hate to handwave away the reality of what it means to be forced into a marriage, but it’s also good to remember that not all women in a victimizing situation are unable to act within that circumstance or forge their own way, and it’s a good reminder to Kal that he doesn’t necessarily know what she wants. All that said, her excuse for Roshone that he was all insulted because Lirin spoke out against him after he was exiled doesn’t carry much water with me.
Chapter 8/9
-Seeing how the powers combine is interesting. Wondering if it will be somehow similar to the various metal alloy concepts in Mistborn.
-Another murder! I wonder if it being one of Sebarial’s men has any particular significance
-Oh, the irony of Adolin having to investigate this. I think Pattern must love being around him! And I have a feeling that whatever powers Renarin has, he knows something is up (and has also perhaps seen the champion?). Shallan might too, subconsciously. But I can see a lot of different places this could end up, none of them good. Both of them have so many secrets (well, her mostly) – it will be an interesting interplay to watch.
-While for now I think Jasnah is the most likely author of the epigraph, I agree there are several abiguous parts that don’t necessarily prove it is her (especially if they are being written in the future and are applying to things that haven’t happened yet).
—–
Having read the comments, I realize I am not clever enough to come up with all the theories – I like the Ialai theory, I didn’t even really think about it.
I will say that I hope Renarin doesn’t go down a sinister path. I never realized (although it fits) that he was intended to be on the autism spectrum, and so I think it’s a nice bit of diversity (especially as we’ve just found out one of our children is on the spectrum). So hopefully he just doesn’t turn out to be creepy because he’s evil. Although interestingly, I always felt that both Steris (in Mistborn) and David (from Reckoners) seemed a bit spectrum-y, or at least socially akward enough that it seemed ambiguous to me. I always wondered if David’s inability to correctly use figurative language was a part of it. But circling back to Renarin, he never came off as creepy to me either…just observant.
Folks have pretty much stopped talking about Laran but I think Brandon gave us a wonderful, though very minor character, in her. Kalidan had no one to rescue here.
She has become the power in the manor. Her husband is just there and his weakness is eveident. When Kalidan makes his demands to Roshone the guards don’t even look at him. They say they need to seek permission from their mistress. She made her own life from the cards she was dealt and made it a good life.
JustanNPC @@@@@ 280
I am sure I sound like a broken record, but once again we are looking at these things from our own personal perspective in life.
Have you ever known someone who told lies and then was absolutely infuriated when they found out someone had lied to them? Unfortunately I have seen many people react in this way.
People tend to rationalize why they tell a lie but often don’t accord others the same rationalizations.
I could certainly be incorrect but this is what I see happening with Shallan and Adolin.
As Gepeto @@@@@223 pointed out, actually Adolin has not out and out lied to anyone because no one asked him if he killed Sadeas.
I think you are correct in that if Adolin tells her by his own choice it would make a difference, but if she does find out by any other means, I think she will feel betrayed. She might also start to doubt her ability to read people. Just a thought on that.
I personally don’t think the Ghostblooks are behind the killing of Vedekar Perel either. I think it is Ialai, or someone else… I still wonder about Amaram. One would think he would be really angry to have lost his ranking in the eyes of his peers. Sooner or later we will get his perspective I am hoping.
**TOR** TYPO ALERT:
I think this should have said:
Please correct me if I’m wrong!
@285: CB – You are reading it out of context. Jasnha, was searching for the city in the hopes of finding books with more information on the Desolations.
Shallan was continuing Jasnha’s quest during WoR. Shallan was thinking about her mentor.
But I think a few others up thread have asked the same thing.
@284
That’s a very fair point. It’s, naturally, a lot harder for people to see where anyone other than themselves are coming from. It’s easy to decide that even though you did something wrong, you had good enough reason to make it necessary, or even right. Then when someone else does something, we only see the wrong, ignoring the fact that they too have justified it. So, I definitely see what you’re saying-I just think that the way Shallan learns the truth will impact her reaction too much for me to make a solid prediction, without knowing what Adolin will do.
Amaram is an interesting thought. Though, I don’t quite see what he’d have to gain from this.
@285- I don’t think that was a typo. We learn as far back as book one that Jasnah was interested in Urithiru in her quest to learn about Voidbringers. It’s understandable that having been a part of Jasnah’s research would make Shallan that much more excited at an opportunity to continue it.
Various musing in response to a variety of comments… (And yes, I’m being very careful to base my comments on what we know at present, up to the point of the released chapters. And no, I’m not trying to mislead anyone. Just musing.)
As has been discussed (at least by Gepeto and I), it really is important to remember whose head we’re in when a particular observation is made, and take into account the observable behavior of others present. It’s not that a family member can’t be wrong, but it’s worth remembering that family members have a lot more years of experience and observation in their heads. So if (for example), Adolin doesn’t act like he thinks Renarin is behaving oddly, then Shallan’s thought that Renarin is being odd isn’t worth all that much. If Adolin seemed to be uncomfortable with Renarin’s behavior but didn’t say anything, that would raise a lot more suspicion. For me, anyway. If Dalinar thinks of Adolin as steady and honorable, that’s because he’s observed those traits for a lot of years. Obviously we know he can be wrong – in WoR, he talked about Adolin being a better man than he was, and then Adolin specifically declared that he wasn’t as he killed Sadeas. Even so, they may not be as wrong about each other as they think, if they ever get it out in the open and talk about it.
I’m confused as to why so many people seem to think there must be something odd about Oroden’s birth. Why on earth shouldn’t he be Lirin and Hesina’s son, as presented? Hesina isn’t all that old, and she’s a very healthy and hardy woman, based on her actions in Kaladin’s flashbacks. There’s never been the smallest hint that their marriage was anything but one of mutual love and respect – why shouldn’t they have another child?
Laral was, to me, a bit of a surprise, but looking back, it’s pretty easy to see the progression. She was always manipulative, and even though she hung out with Kaladin and he thought of her as a friend, that was mostly because he was the highest-ranking person roughly her own age in the area – by a wide margin. She never loved Kaladin as he was, but she was ready to “love” him if he could climb high enough to merit it. Kaladin seemed to think of her as being pushed into marriage when she was engaged to Rillir and then to Roshone, but I see that as her making the choices that would give her the most control over her future. Marrying someone from a different place would put her in a lower position, whereas staying in her own home where people already thought of her as the “real master’s” daughter would give her more authority. And then she took it. I suspect the engagement to Roshone was her idea, once Rillir died, and she pretty much took over the show.
Oh, and once again, it helps to remember that we saw Lirin and Roshone’s behavior through Kaladin’s eyes. Laral would have had a very different perspective on the situation, partly due to the difference in what each would hear and observe, and partly due to social placement. It’s easy enough to see why she would think that Lirin was out of line in multiple ways. And I don’t know any woman who’s likely to think it’s acceptable for someone (even an old boyfriend, which Kaladin never really was) to come along and stick swords into her hardwood floors.
Lisamarie @282 – Steris has Asperger’s, and according to those who live with it, Sanderson captured it very well in her character. David… I don’t think Sanderson ever said that David is on the spectrum, but he’s a little obsessive; he tries too hard all the time, and so he often “trips over his own feet” metaphorically.
I had previously speculated about 3 possibilities for the 2nd killer knowing exactly how Sadeas’ corpse was positioned despite the limited number of people around Dalinar who had seen it prior to it being moved. However, upon rereading that chapter I note that Sadeas’ soldiers had seen the body where it had originally lain and had placed one of their jackets over the bloody head. One of those soldiers could have reported to Ialai describing the body in detail. She could then have arranged for the 2nd killing and the positioning of the corpse. It’s also possible that Ialai had come across the body before anyone else, kept her composure, and was determined to avenge her husband’s death by means of a copycat 2nd killing and a subsequent required investigation. She may well have suspected Adolin whom she knew hated Sadeas, and arranged a mechanism that might reveal the matter.
LM at 282 – “I will say that I hope Renarin doesn’t go down a sinister path. I never realized (although it fits) that he was intended to be on the autism spectrum, and so I think it’s a nice bit of diversity (especially as we’ve just found out one of our children is on the spectrum).”
Sorry to hear about the diagnosis, although it sounds like you are taking it in stride. We’ve been living ASD issues with our son for over 18 years at this point, and its been an interesting ride. Hope you are getting some good support.
Rob
@270, 278:
I’d reread the end of Edgedancer to see if you still feel Nalan might be the Champion. He would have to go from killing proto-KRs in order to stop the Desolation from coming, to realizing he failed, and theDesolation was coming (which seems to break him, as he allows Lift to hug him, and hugs her back as he cries), to actively fighting for the One who brings the Desolations.
I suppose he could be convinced that the only way to break the cycle of Desolations is for Odium to win, but that would make his internal motivations, and role, an awful lot like Ishmael’s from the Wheel of Time. And I can’t see Sanderson stealing that blatantly from a work he’s already associated with, and most of his fans will have read.
@272:
True, but just because Wyndle thinks his people’s preparations are what made things easier doesn’t mean they are what made things easier. Applying the wrong cause to an effect is something that Sanderson actually teaches in his fiction writing classes. Still, good catch! I hadn’t thought of that.
@280 RE: Shallan/Adolin:
Considering she’s killed two people herself (her parents), one of which was a cold blooded murder she pre-planned in order to defend her brothers, I doubt she’ll be judgy.
I sincerely hope all of you are wrong about Adolin being Odium’s champion. It’s true that he murdered Sadeas, but I don’t think that puts him automatically on a downward spiral that leads to being the a champion for embodiment of hate in the universe. Anyone can be redeemed, and Sadeas wholly deserved what happened to him anyway, it’s just protocol in Alethi society that forbids it. As Adolin and others mentioned, completely betraying someone on the battlefield and ensuring their death, or sending assassins in the night, is almost completely okay in Alethi society, but insulting them in public isn’t, due to notions of propriety. Adolin didn’t necessary do something evil, and certainly not so much that there’s no redemption for him. Dalinar has done far worse in his life than Adolin, as has Shallan, and both of them are heroes. Look at Szeth, for goodness sake, who’s now working for a herald.
@Wet #288
Let me start by saying I’m not married to the idea that it’s not Lirin & Hesina’s. What got me thinking was justcanthelpmyself #17 pointing out the fact that apprentice might be avoiding Kaladin and we didn’t get to meet. Also, Kaladin saying “His mother would be forty-one this year, and…” “And . . .” what?
Disqualifier: I’m not blessed with the talent of some of y’all in regards to ferreting out minor details on 1 or 2 reads. 41 seems a perfectly normal age to have a child to me, but I don’t know about on Roshar, so that is why Kaladin points it out. It also might be perfectly acceptable for a Family that has lost both children, especially a Family with such an important job as a Dr., to find a surrogate. Finally, again, the “and . . .”
Others commenters may already have it worked out that 41 is not too old and Alethi society would never allow surrogates, due to other context clues. My bird brain works much more meta.
Kalaxin @@@@@ 289
Also if I remember correctly, some of Kaladin’s guards were there as well? There was about to be a physical fight because some thought that Kaladin’s men might have been responsible. So there certainly could be more people aware of how Sadeas body was in death.
Put me down in the Camp opposed to Adolin being Odium’s champion. It doesn’t match with the man who insisted on staying in prison so long as Kaladin was imprisoned. BS has used the unwilling in service of the destructive forces elsewhere in the Cosmere but that seems like a bad fit for a Champion.
@293 I’m starting to wonder if we’re blowing Sadeas’ murder out of proportion to its role in the narrative. While it’s an important moment in Adolin’s character arc, the end of a book may have given it too much emphasis. It didn’t help that the consequences were among the easier things to speculate about.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the political fallout affects the story more than Adolin’s personal reaction. We’ve already had a scene where most of the characters didn’t particularly care.
JustanNPC @287
I too think how Shallan learns the truth will make the difference, if not initially, then possibly after she considers it for a while.
My take on Amaram is that he is almost as horrible a person as Sadeas was, just my personal opinion.
Amaram obviously believes the end justifies the means and wow, how horrible that turns out in life, huh?
I think Amaram is narcissistic and those kinds of people tend to be very vindictive. He felt completely justified in killing all of those other bridegmen of Kaladin’s who were witnesses, discrediting Kal, branding him as a slave and lying about how Kal was a coward, then he admits to Dalinar that he would do it again. His ego knows no bounds,IMHO.
I think the fact that Dalinar believed Kaladin above Amaram’s word and then went the distance to see if Amaram would steal the shardblade of Tain; would be reason enough for Amaram to want to get revenge. I could certainly be wrong, but since Amaram basically lost his standing among his peers, I could see him doing it.
“I thought,” Dalinar said, “that if you had been willing to murder for one Blade, you’d be willing to lie for a second. And so, after I knew you’d sneaked in to see the madman on your own, I asked you to investigate his claims for me. I gave your conscience plenty of time to come clean, out of respect for our friendship. When you told me you’d found nothing – but in fact you had actually recovered the Shardblade – I knew the truth.”
Source: Words of Radiance, Ch 76
Yeah, I don’t think we have seen the last of Amaram’s damage by any means.
Wetlandernw@@@@@288 – oh, I think Laral was totally right to scold him over sticking the sword in her floor. (Actually, for some reason it reminded me of that scene in the Hunger Games movie. THAT’S MAHOGANY!”) And I think you bring up a good point that it’s very possible she wasn’t ‘forced’ into the marriage at all and was just making a calculated decision and is more shrewd than Kaladin realizes (although you could perhaps debate the merits of a system where that’s one of the ways a woman can get power, etc).
But I’m still not sympathetic to Roshone ;)
To be clear – I’m not so much surprised at the idea that they had another child (and know people who had kids that late in life!), but rather the way they specifically talk about this child/situation.
Regarding Steris, specifically – she is probably my favorite of all the characters Sanderson has written :D Like, she is my spirit animal for sure. And I say this as somebody who was stupidly attached to Vin and Elend, ha. But I actually always really had a soft spot for Renarin too. :)
RobMRobM @@@@@ 290 – thanks. Although I’m never totally sure how to respond when people say, ‘I’m sorry”. We’re not really…sorry. It’s just kind of confirmation of what we suspected all along, which is that he is a bit different and has some special challenges, but also some special abilities. I mean, not going to lie, it’s rough at times, and I foresee additional challenges as he gets older and the social skills gap between him and his peers continues to widen (he’s a young elementary school student so right now kids are still fairly forgiving). But right now the diagnosis is a good thing as it’s getting us access to some more tools and services and giving us better ways to help him. But he’s fairly high functioning so our experience may be different.
Wetlandern@@@@@ 288
Oh please tell me we are allowed to speculate all over the place because I am just getting warmed up! Are you a beta reader, did I read that somewhere in this forum? I finally quit trying to keep up with all the other chapter comments and am just concentrating on the latest ones as they progress. If you are a beta reader I can understand why you are very careful to only comment on what has been released here.
From Brandon’s keyboard to your eyes, huh?
:)
Yeah, she’s a beta reader. There was a cool article about it a while back?
Wow, did I get a hunny? I think it is my first! And we already reached the third within two days? Ha!
@300 Yes, yes you did.
Does anyone else think Winnie the Pooh when some writes “Hunny?”
Yes, I do! I figured that was part of the pun (like getting the ‘hunny pot’ when you get the 100th comment).
After re-reading and catching up on the comments and the many different ideas relating to the new murder I have some weird out of the box thoughts.
Now I can’t remember for certain, but I believe Shallan was in the group that was brought to the Sadeas murder scene. Since she can capture perfect memories perhaps she is the one who committed the new murder and was able to make it exactly match the original using her abilities.
I don’t actually think this is the case as I have no idea why she would need to kill a random NPC from Serbial’s camp and there was no indication from her POV that she was involved (although she does have a habit of keeping secrets from herself), but the emphasis on how the murder was IDENTICAL made it stand out to me.
I still think it was the Ghostbloods using the first murder as a cover for murdering others within Urithiru, but at this point it could really be anyone.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@291 I didn’t say Nalan would be the one to turn, I had mentioned Jezrien, I agree that it wouldn’t make sense. I believe I made an error in which Herald it was that seems to go bad in edgedancer, but it would actually make even more sense with this correction. The Herald that made the decision and first suggested to abandon the oathpact was Ishar. Nalan is saying at the end of Edgedancer that he had talked to Ishar that the voidbringers were returning and that it was a mistake to keep killing the radiants. He says “The Voidbringers have not returned,” Darkness said firmly. “Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie.” So same argument as before that he is the herald that betrayed the others and corrupted their thinking enough to abandon the Oathpact and the shadows represent the nine Heralds who abandon the Oathpact (or maybe the Unmade cognitive shadows of them? Thanks @280 for that theory). This fits in even better because Ishar is the Herald who founded the Bondsmiths, which could explain why there was something familiar about the Champion.
@288 I wouldn’t call twelve year old Laral manipulative – I don’t think she only hung out with Kal because he was high ranked, more like he was closer to her way of life and son of her father’s friend. There’s a difference. And the only time we see her bringing up the Shardblade thing with Kal (and it sounded like it was the first time she broached that particular topic) she only loosely implied what she mant before stopping, flustered. It sounded more like a pre teen with a crush who wanted an easy romance like in the stories than a calculative mastermind.
Lisamarie @@@@@ 300.
Congrats on the hunny, and thanks on the beta reader info. I thought I had read on here that she was. I don’t know that I was a member here when the article was published. Been here a couple of weeks, maybe 3.
noblehunter @@@@@ 301
Yes, I do think of Winnie the Pooh! :p
If you’re interested, here’s the article: https://www.tor.com/2017/06/27/unity-of-purpose-the-oathbringer-beta-story/
Also, I’m pretty sure our favorite Bear was very much part of the hunny origination.
A lot of interesting discussion going on, key points I noticed have already been mentioned, so I’ll try to throw in a couple of points that also grabbed my attention.
Re copycat murder- did not expect it, but am excited to see how the investigation proceeds, especially with Adolin leading it. Regarding the theories, I went back to the previous book to see Sadeas’ demise again – I completely forgot that before meeting Sadeas, Adolin hears voices and sees Sadeas split up his scouting party just before the encounter: “Sadeas gestured for a few of his soldiers to go down one branch of the tunnel-like corridor. His wife and a few of her scribes went the other way, two soldiers trailing.” Then Sadeas is left behind alone, noticing Adoling almost straight away, as Adolin tries to retreat. From the passage it looks like only moments have passed. Imho, this gives credence to the theory that Ialai is involved (yes, I think she is calculating enough to leave her husband to cool for several hours for her purposes whilst making plans of her own) – only moments have passed since she left; assuming there are only 4 passages in and out, surely at least one of the two parties would have come back for the highprince? Sure, they could have been turned around, but would Ialai leave Sadeas alone for long? This also would give her opportunity to study the crime scene and even start investigating who was where.
I am not sure if it is at all obvious who the killer is, in Ialai’s or other people’s eyes, since Adolin is mostly perceived as the straight forward, let’s duel kind of guy. If we did not know that it was Adolin who killed Sadeas, I am curious, how many of you would think “Adolin”, rather than think of Ghostbloods, Amaram or some other unknown party (effectively, as we are currently doing with the second murder).
One final point re the 2nd corpse discovery scene – I am a bit surprised, given how emotional Adolin is, that there is no fearspren, or worryspen, or some such equivalent hovering over him.
Re some smaller points –
Tommay @245, birgit @259 – yes! Someone else is curious re the Sunmaker’s role in Oathbringer the book. Glad to see that, and would love to see more candidates put forth – somehow having just Jasnah for a Sanderson Epigraph Mystery feels … lacking in choice (though certainly from the info that we have at our disposal she does look like the most reasonable choice).
@several re the young scout going through Shallan’s book – it also rubbed me the wrong way, and indeed, some have brought up reality vs fanatsy, but, as mentioned re autism, atheism, PTSD etc, Brandon does try to put forth realistic portrayals of people’s interactions with others be they conditions or beliefs. Plus, I am reminded that Shallan’s sketchbook has been seen by others and commented on before, so this is not the first time, IIRC (I believe it was in book one, mostly?). Also, re the young scout herself – I just reread chapter 1 to see who was there to discover the body, interestingly enough, amongst those present, Dalinar highlights some names, soldiers, and a “young scout woman who had fetched him”. Could be nothing, could be a member of one of the secret societies? Or it could be that she is one of the scouts assigned to KR and hence Shallan sees her a lot and thus does not mind so much that she looks at her sketchbook.
@several re Kaladin going home – I take it is now where Bridge Four is, and where the other KR with Dalinar stay. I guess after checking out the Parshendi, he’ll head to Kholinar and possibly will have to find out / retrieve the queen and/or open the Oathgate.
Re Renarin and Shallan – could it be the “prickle at the back of her neck” that Shallan felt could be her either detecting Illumination being used by Renarin, or Renarin’s spren somehow evaluating her or looking for Pattern?
Re Herald Watch: I had the impression from offhand comments in Edgedancer that this Tezim, who turns out claims to be Aspect of the Almighty – is one of the Heralds. If that is the case, which one? Jezrien? Also, again, mostly from Edgedancer, I had the impression that in Tashiik, Tashi is the equivalent of Ishar? Any thoughts or WOB on that? Now that the Desolation has come, surely Heralds will be coming out and be playing a more prominent role? Based on Nale’s and Shalash’s experiences, their functions got corrupted somehow, I wonder if they will be more of a use or a hindrance?
Finally, what can kill a Herald? And are all of them about? (From the three books, I remember hints or implications of Shalash, Nale, Ishar, Jezrien running around; read somewhere suggestions that we have seen Kalak as well in one of the preludes.)
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 307
Thanks, will check it out!
@288 wetlandernw I’m not 100% sold on the idea that Orodin is Kaladin’s. At 41 Hesina could easily bear another child, it would be well within reason for a couple to have another child thinking they just lost 2 offspring to war. I was just expanding on the train of thought that the child was not Lirin’ s and Hesina’s and possibly the apprentice’s. It’s a scenario that makes sense in my head and could see happening but did not become an active thought process until prodded by combining @17 & @35.
When that possibility was posed my brain immediately clicked over with:
Who is the father?
Why is the apprentice avoiding Kaladin?
Does she know him?
How does she know him?
Then came the “what if” and “that would be cool”
If Mara were Tarah and if the child was Kaladin’s it would be reasonable for her to be taken in by his parents if she could convince them of who she is. If I remember correcly Kaladin was not in communication with his parents after Tiens death so there would be some convincing that had to occur for them to take in a pregnant stranger claiming to be carrying their grandchild.
Why the name change? T for Tien? Deserted from the army and needed a new identity? That’s a stretch, I know.
My brain went into justification mode and the thought posed in @268 was the end result.
As I said I’m not 100% sold on it, I can agree with it, and think it would be a nice arc.
Plus I know RAFO. Either way it goes I can’t wait to see if I’m right or wrong.
Sorry for the rambling. Hope that resolves your confusion from my part.
Cheers
Sndmn
Ok. not to give too many spoilers away. (roll over for spoilers) i think the preface might be by Dalinar. remeber his original shardblade was named Oathbringer. but it could also refer to the original man the Sunlord who held that blade and united Althkar.
If you read his story The Thrill. you will find out about his wife, and why he married her. ie. for her plate. a little foreign princess.
Note: message edited by moderators to white out potential spoilers.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 307
Thanks, will check it out!
What a great article! Wow, I was so impressed with the comments of the beta readers, especially Joel’s comment.
Sounds like a bunch of crazy, nerve-wracking, but extremely rewarding work, where do I sign up?
The Beta Babies are soo adorable.
Re: Oroden’s relation to Kaladin – I also don’t get why some doubt that Oroden is Kaladin’s brother. Hessina’s exact words to Kaladin are, “Kaladin, meet your brother.” She tells Kaladin directly and without hesitation; she doesn’t allow him to jump to that conclusion and then just not correct him (which would be the likely course of action if she is trying to keep Oroden’s parentage a secret).
I would have a hard time accepting that -after not seeing her son for 5+ years- one of Hessina’s first actions after being reunited with Kaladin is to lie directly to his face about the new baby in their lives.
Spiritwalker51@297. He felt completely justified in killing all of those other bridegmen of Kaladin’s who were witnesses, discrediting Kal, branding him as a slave
Think you meant soldiers. Kal wasn’t made a bridge man till he got to the shattered plains.
Anthony Pero @291 – It’s been a while since I read it, but I was under the impression Wyndle had it easier than the other spren because of what the Nightwatcher did to Lift? He speculates that she must be partially in the cognitive realm since she can touch him, and that would have smoothed the transition (I would assume).
sndmn @310 – One thing to recall is that the Rosharan year is a bit longer than ours. So a 41 year old woman would be the equivalent of 45, which is getting pretty old to have a child. Enough to be surprising, i think, but still plausible.
I think the reason why Lirin didn’t introduce his apprentice is because she was busy checking up on patients and it wasn’t really important to moving the plot forward at this point. The dynamics of the scene were between Kaladin and rediscovering people he knew from a child and how he and they changed. Each person he encountered and had meaningful interaction with was someone who caused great impact on his life before leaving for the army. The apprentice wasn’t part of that dynamic.
It wouldn’t have made sense for Lirin, when threatening Roshone to just say “His apprentice”. He would name her. That’s how people talk in conversation. Lirin probably calls her by her name all the time and so when talking to Roshone would do the same.
Different topic – Truthwatchers and how their surges could let them see the future. I’ve been thinking about that one and we have growth/regrowth and illumination. Illumination has to deal with light. Light lets you see things. Growth is moving something forward. It’s sort of transitioning into the future. You know when you grow something it’ll get bigger and become something else. So, the two surges combine to allow a truthwatcher to see using light into the future, because they’re seeing the future of the light.
Exactly how that works and what they can see, I don’t know. Maybe like Gold or Atium shadows? Or something else all together.
Re: Renarian staring unblinking out into the room. Autistic people tend to do this. We kinda get lost in a thought and just… forget to do and notice things around us. Which is, yes, kinda creepy if you’re not used to it. A lot of autistic mannerisms can also be considered creepy if you’re not used to it. Which Shallan definitely isn’t. Renarian having an anxiety attack at the end of WoR and just perceverating a word over and over again is… kinda creepy. I may have done similar things int he past which caused quite a bit of worry on lots of people’s ends.
@Wetlandernw If Brandon would like someone to give an autistic person’s POV on things, I’d be happy to offer my services. ^_^
Lisamarie@298
PM me if you want some recommendations on resources. Our oldest is 10. He has ASD. It’s a different set of challenges for each area of the spectrum. A “mild” severity has its own unique hurdles. And as they say, if you’ve met one person with Autism, you’ve met one person with Autism. So naturally each Autistic person has their own strengths and weaknesses.
As I said to my parents when we told them about the diagnosis. In some ways it changes everything. In most ways it changes nothing. He’s still him. And we enjoy him for who he is and the unique qualities he brings to the table.
When we were at a historic house museum the tour guide was telling everyone to stay on the carpeted path or the alarm system would sound. My son immediately asked how it worked. The guide replied that it was a laser system and if the light is interrupted then the alarm sounds. My boy scrunched up his face and replied in his normative, professesorial manner, that one could simply step over the beam of light and that they needed to augment with additional security to compensate for the weakness in their system. The guide didn’t quite know what to do with that one. We eventually had to tell our son to stop bothering the guy because he wouldn’t let the topic go.
Anyway, I like Renarin and I’m looking forward to see how his neuralatypical presentation contributes to the story. Both in good and some notso good ways. As with any other character.
On Characters Perspective onto Each Other: What I meant when I said Dalinar views Adolin as “steady” and “strong” weren’t he was wrong, I meant to say his perspective of his son might hinder him when time comes to deal with his actions. So while we, the readers, have to remember who’s perspective we are reading, I also think we ought to remember how a given character views another because those views would influence how they will react to future hardships. For instance, while Dalinar views of his eldest might be accurate based on years of observation, they may prevent him from seeing his distress. Sometimes, the best disguise is people’s blind expectations of yourselves.
This being said, I definitely agree Dalinar and Adolin need to talk. Like. Talk. Dalinar needs to be open with Adolin which is likely to get Adolin to open up. I have been dying for a real. heart felt, father/son moment, so hopefully OB will have it.
On Oroden: There need not be a hidden secret behind each plot element. Sometimes, a cat is just… a cat.
On Age: While it is true Rosharians have lived longer then their human counter-part for the same age number, nothing says they age similarly. Hesina having no issue getting pregnant at 41 is a good indication.
On Laral: I actually called it out a while ago. I’ll admit my theory existed mostly because I disliked the other theories. Somehow, having Laral become a sobbing broken girl Kaladin needs to rescue or worst yet another broken Radiant didn’t seem right. Not everyone will break when faced with hardships: some people will just turn a bad situation into a winning situation which is exactly what Laral has done. Forced to marry a man more than twice her age, she did best with worst: she became the leader of her small town, a respected women people more readily obey then her husband. I loved it.
On Shallan’s Perspective of Adolin: My current thoughts are Shallan likes the idea of being with Adolin more than she likes Adolin. While it is true she had quite a few dark things within her past, I somehow suspect she may not agree with the new “darker” Adolin. I am not convinced at all she will support him. I think she might be either spooked or disinterest by him when he turns out not being what she expected.
I’m late to the party, but here are my thoughts:
Chapter 7.
Powerful, emotional chapter. One of my favorite in the whole series so far. I’m glad Brandon is not leaving us hanging when it comes to ending a chapter with a cliffhanger. I find the book to be more satisfying that way.
Chapter 8/9
Probably silly of me, but my first thought when reading Dallinar talk about the different rulers in different parts of Roshar was to think, Which Forsaken, i mean Unmade vs Heralds is ruling where? I saw it as a tip of the cap to WOT fans.
As far as the other killing, that’s a lot of trouble to go through to make a dead body look exactly the same as Sadeas. Especially with the exact positioning. Wouldn’t a stab through the eye be enough for people to come to the conclusion that it possibly was the same killer? I think there is something else going on with the other murder. A threat we have yet encountered, perhaps an Unmade that’s able to mimic or something like that.
By now, on the WOT Re-read, the old site would have broken several times. So, progress, yea!
Noblehunter @296. I disagree. I believe Sadeas’s murder will be a significant part of the OB plot. More specifically, I think that fairly early in OB, other characters will learn that Adolin murdered Sadeas. (BTW, “murder” is the term that Adolin used to describe what he did to Sadeas.)
First, (especially after WoR) Adolin the character we know — from his actions and thoughts, is not an immoral or evil person. This is the person who was willing to stay in jail as long as Kaladin was in jail. In WoK, he comes to the rescue of the prostitute whom Sadeas’ soldiers hassled. Thus, I think he should have at least some mental anguish for his actions. If not, then why did he clean up after the fact and ask himself “had he just murdered a highprince” (italics included in original quote). I do not believe it would be consistent with Adolin’s character to not have some mental anguish/issues with killing Adolin.
Second, even if Alethian society would conclude that Adolin should not be sentenced to death; banished from Alethkar and disinherited; stripped of his Shards; or any other similar punishment, I think Adolin should face some consequences. (Query: can Adolin be banished from Urithiru as it is not Alethkar – notwithstanding that at the moment, only Alethian’s are at Urithiru?) At a minimum, it appears there will be full-fledged investigation. Dalinar has put Adolin in charge of said investigation. (Although, this is sort of like a whitespine guarding the chull house.) This investigation would have to detail Sadeas’ past actions against Dalinar, the King and Dalinar’s House. If Adolin was cleared, so be it. At least Adolin and the other characters would not know the result of the investigation until the investigator(s) released the results.
Third, I think it would be weak (for a lack of a better word) from a literary perspective. In the first two books, there were a lot of buildup between the conflict between Dalinar/Adolin and Sadeas. At the very end of a novel, Adolin and Sadeas have school-yard fist fight that ends in Sadeas’ death. For Adolin not to face any consequences, would (IMO) be a major literary disappointment.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
Matt@316:
You are remembering correctly :) Wyndle lists a couple of reasons why things could have been easier for him. The point being, since he’s listing possible reasons why, he obviously doesn’t know why it was easier for him. He’s just speculating. One thing pretty common in fiction is to have a character speculate about something, and arrive at the wrong conclusion.
I’m also just speculating. Its not something I expect to be actually relevant to the plot, anymore than similar things are in Mistborn.
@323 AndrewHB
Well, Adolin is a ethical person in the sense that he tries to do what he thinks is the right thing. He stays in jail with Kaladin, he stands up for a prostitute, and he looks after his soldiers. He also stabs sneery traitorous bastards who threaten his father. I don’t see any cognitive dissonance here, and I don’t think Adolin does, either.
Adolin has never killed a man off the battlefield before. He’s never ambushed a man who wasn’t expecting it and killed him at close range without time for either of them to truly prepare. However, most of the people he killed on the battlefield were Parshendi foot soldiers, enemies who were only trying to defend their own people, while Sadeas is a false friend who betrayed Dalinar, tried to claim he was mad, and openly told Adolin that he wasn’t going to stop trying to murder Dalinar. I’m not saying that he can’t feel shocked, or think that he committed murder, but I still think that Adolin believes Sadeas needed to die, and that he would do the same thing all over again if he had the chance.
Nutty Professor @@@@@ 315
Yes Professor, you are correct. I did mean the soldiers. There is a lot going on in this brain. Thanks for pointing that out!
Gepeto @320
If I remember correctly, wasn’t Shallan quite excited at the prospect of the betrothal when Jasnah mentioned that she had brought it up to Navani? It seemed to me that she was excited about the position she would be in as his betrothed.
I am waaay behind and only now catching up on the comments, but this struck me. If it has been addressed in the subsequent comments I’ll eventually come to it.
Gepeto @171:
Wait! What am I missing? How many other Truthwatchers have we seen so far in the Stormlight Archive? We know Renarin is a Truthwatcher, and very little else about what he can or cannot do. We have also been told by Brandon that Ym would have been a Truthwatcher had he lived. As far as I know, that’s it. Do you mind pointing out all those other Truthwatchers I’ve missed, whose actions are inconsistent with Renarin’s?
@327
Shallan had long ago become resigned to the fact that her eventual marriage would be arranged for her. She never expected such a fortuitous match and was quite pleased that instead of a dodgy codger she would have picked up on her own considering the state of her house, she gets one of the most eligible bachelors in the world. She was initially happy about the match and has become moreso after actual interactions with him.
Now that Shallan is a Radient (or at least the furthest along in the Radient cycle) she doesn’t need him. She never really struck me as a social climber so maybe that won’t matter to her. If it doesn’t, if she’s free to choose then what happens with the Adolin investigation could have a huge impact on their relationship. She could break the betrothal with no real consequences other than some hurt feelings. Does that push her towards Kaladin? He’s unattached after all.
@38 Multiple lashings determine acceleration; each lashing is the strength of gravity and requires stormlight based primarily on the mass of the object. However, Szeth could not use stormlight as efficiently; it’s quite possible that stormlight is basically the essence of Honor and therefore works more efficiently the more one is attuned to Honor. Kaladin is already what, a level 3 windrunner? Anyway, pretty well-attuned.
Am I the only one that is annoyed by the phrase “Adolin murdered Sadeas” ???? I know Adolin asked himself “had he just murdered a highprince” and i am sure it might shake him emotionally for a bit but I’ll answer his questoon for him…. no. It is only because Adolin is good at the core that he even worried about it. Will Shallan care when she finds out, if so, not permanemtly. Nothing is more creepy than her calmly choking her father, and who cares if Adolin lies to her about killing Sadeas, who wouldn’t? When she finds out, she will be the one to help him through it, she’ll actually be able to relate to him better. As if Adolin would be the only one in high society not to follow their “rules” and when a guy kills a couple thousand of your friends, tries to kill you and your father, and promises to destroy your family, you take him out… then say oops I forgot to hire an assassin and do it the proper way, I’ll remember that next time.
@331: Adolin DID murder Sadeas. I applaud him for it, but he most definitely did murder Sadeas. And the issue with Shallan is that she’s full of contradictions and used to being the smartest person in the room; she might not like the fact that Adolin lied to her, even if by omission, and she *missed it*.
Jnutter819 @330
So glad you brought this up. Either your theory of gravitational lashings is wrong or Brandons physics are somewhat off.
“he lashed himself upward rose into the air then added a lash downward and hovered two feet off the ground” -not the exact quote but that’s about what he said.
So if each lashing is of equal strength he wouldn’t stop if the forces balance out. He would still have a velocity and an object in motion tends to remain in motion and all that. So instead of hovering he continues to glide up till he smacks his head on the ceiling of Roshone’s hall. So to hover in the air he would actully need to either increase the strength of a downward lashing or if that’s not possible he would have to add an extra lashing downward so that he he slowed to a stop then remove the extra lashing.
Also even if the force of a lashing is fixed, if he can turn the lashings on and off really fast then he could vary the effective force of the lashing. A lashing on half the time and off half the time would give him an effective strength of one half. Biasing the on off time one way or the other would make the effective strength greater or less then the one half. This is called pulse width modulation. And it’s used all the time to decrease effective volatages in electronics. Though depending on how much stormlight is conserved when a lash is removed this may or may not be an effective use of stormlight. I wonder if Brandon will ever use this.
One other thing on the first read It sounds like he only lashed himself once that would me that he would have 1g upward from a lashing and 1g downward from a lashing + 1g downward from a lashing the net force is then just normal gravity.
Now in reality he doesn’t specify how many lashings he made upward, so I guess we can assume it was two. if it were two then the net force would balance. But then he still has velocity upward as I said before.
-Ryan
@323 I didn’t mean to imply that Adolin wouldn’t face consequences, only that they wouldn’t mark a major change in his character arc. The political consequence will dominate at least the first part of the book, especially since someone is clearly trying to make things difficult.
@325 I’m pleased to have the chance to agree with you.
I’m wondering if maybe Elokar (?) Is going to be Odium’s champion. He’s the one seeing shadow creatures in the mirror, maybe there’s nine of them, and it seems like he’s going to be pretty bitter with Dalinar usurping his authority. Maybe that’s enough for him to seek some sort of petty vengeance also add in the fact that he is very immature and spoiled. Could be good motivation for him.
AP@322
Truth
@322: AP – site breaking – truth. But it is slowing down while I type comments, so I’m back to typing them in a different doc, then copy & pasting them to TOR.
@320: Spiritwalker51 – yes, Shallan was very thrilled with the proposed match. It would help to protect her family. And Adolin was closer to her age than she expected to marry. After meeting him, she enjoyed the match even more – after she riveted his attention. Good thing she wasn’t the crazy jealous type to start.
@328: Alisonwonderland – The only other Truthwatcher we have seen is Ym. So I do not know where the comment @171 came from either. I’m not familiar with any Truthwatcher WoB that would cover the statement either.
@332: Carly – Why do you think Shallan is “used to being the smartest person in the room”? Uh? That’s not how I’ve read her at all.
Jasnha, yes. Jasnha is used to being the smartest one around.
Shallan wasn’t being “smart” when she was pulling her brothers together. She was trying to save her family – that’s compassion, not smarts. She’s used to being intelligent. But not the smartest by a long shot.
@333:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you (and maybe I’m misunderstanding the text), but I thought that lashing didn’t add gravitational force. They changed gravity locally for the one who is lashed. So, when Kaladin lashes himself to the sky, he isn’t given 1 G of force from beneath him (although, in reality, Roshar has less gravity than earth, so its like, .8 G), he actually falls upward, and the planet’s gravity is nonexistent, no longer a factor.
Then, when he lashes himself downward, equally, its may create a null G experience, which is what I’m taking from your post, but he’s not in space. There is all kinds of atmospheric resistance, and Roshar’s atmosphere is more oxygen rich, and therefore more dense than our own. While he may not stop on a dime, assuming he’s not yet traveling that fast (its been too long since physical science for me to math out the velocity curve, and it would be different on Roshar anyway), he would come to rest pretty quickly in that scene due to the atmospheric resistance, and lack of forward momentum to begin with.
LisaMarie @298 – you hit the nail on the head. I thought about how to respond and I gave you the best I could come up with, but it doesn’t quite seem right. Having a kid with a disability raises issues for the kid and parent that are often more difficult than those experienced by families with “typical” kids, but that is not to say that all is bad. The diagnosis is great for getting services and, more importantly, for gaining an understanding of your child’s strengths and weakness, so you can better help him develop and grow as a person. If you haven’t seen it or heard the expression, google “Welcome to Holland” and read the associated thought piece – it’s a very interesting point of view. Best of luck and feel free to reach out if you have questions or need resources. My wife is now the full time paid autism specialist for a social services organization, so we’re pretty plugged in at this point.
Rob
@334: This hardly is the first time I come across similar commentaries, but I have to disagree with you. For some reasons, I have noticed there were those who keep on arguing Adolin’s character shall not change nor evolve nor grow nor move forward following the downfall of having murdered Sadeas. While I respect other readers preferring other story arcs within the main narrative, I feel it is doing a disservice to the story to root for what has been an important plot point to accumulate into a great big nothing.
Had Brandon only wanted to explore the political consequences of an ill-timed murder, then he need not have Adolin’s character being involved. But he did and because he did many readers expect…. something to happen with respect to his character. Obviously not all theories are going to come to fruitition, but wanting this particular plot point to wrap around itself quickly such as to avoid Adolin’s character to have any sort of downfall really isn’t doing the story a great service, IMHO.
I think we ought to make the differentiation in between what we want and what makes up for the best story telling. Preferring Adolin’s character, a character whom has been one of our major viewpoints, to remain static in a story where ALL characters are forever evolving, including minor ones, sounds like rooting for a blank stereotyped place-holder to hold on to Shallan’s hands whenever needed. Or to fight the occasional duel. A potted plant would serve the same function. Of course, some readers might think this makes the better story, but I would argue it pretty much nullifies the tension and the suspense Brandon has been able to built with the copycat murderer running loose.
Characters are interesting because they change, they evolve, they grow, they react to the main narrative. This is true for ALL characters. We should all root for the best possible character arcs, not for characters we enjoy less to remain static because it’d imply we’d read less of them. This commentary is worth for myself too as I have been rooting for characters I feel no engagement towards to merely… disappear from the story (I am looking at you Szeth).
Thus, I really do not understand the plea for Adolin’s character to not suffer any damage, apart from mild consequences, because of the mess he put himself into. The fact Adolin might suffer from his own actions is precisely what makes the story interesting, especially when you weighted down with how everyone has been viewing him.
Adolin is a character within the story: he too has the right to grow and evolve, just like everyone within our other currently non-major protagonists such as Renarin, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar and Bridge 4.
On Was It Murder? Yes, it was murder, but it was a murder done with provocation, reason and justification which may or may not hold the road within the Alethi legal system. It also marks a severe downfall from “daddy’s perfect boy who was born so good he would never kill anyone in a fit of rage”. We can bet there will be those who’ll have trouble accepting this new reality.
On But Shallan killed Too: Yes, she did. Yes, it was far more creepy and disturbing than Adolin knifing Sadeas. It however does not mean she will automatically feel sympathetic to Adolin having killed Sadeas, especially not after he refused to tell her the whole truth. People aren’t always rational and it may be Shallan will lose interest in Adolin if he proves too complicated or too far from the picture perfect image she made up of their married life. While I am sure Shallan would marry the Adolin she thinks she knows, I am unsure she would marry an Adolin able to have secrets from her, able to not tell the truth and whom isn’t quite the dream she thought he was. She might get spooked. She might fear him. She might think he is too much like her father. She might think a great deal lot of things, but I wouldn’t take it for granted she will react well because “she too has killed”.
On Adolin Murdering. I wonder if Jasnah’s history is a hint. This is an inference, but I believe a strong one. When she was thinking to herself in the prologue to WoR about the trustworthiness of various assassins keeping their bargain to inform her of assassination attempts she reassures herself that she can count on them because people prefer repeat customers. I take that to mean that she is every bit as ruthless in protecting her family as Sadeas’ widow is. Adolin, I would guess, will have his own journey and if he ends of a radiant (especially recovering a dead shard as so often speculated) his own order but I don’t see the murder excluding him from joining.
In one of Dalinar’s visions a radiant told him (as near as I can remember) that anyone who does have the urge to fight was encouraged to come join and anyone who did fight was required to join so that it did not destroy their soul. Perhaps the Bondsmith’s next oath will teach him how to preserve the people who fight.
@94 @102 What makes Kal third dahn? I thought being a shardbearer only made you fourth dahn? And Roshone as citylord should be fourth dahn as well, right?
ray irwin @311 – “Ok. not to give too many spoilers away.”
Don’t give ANY spoilers away. Good grief. I’ve flagged your post so that the moderators can at least white out your spoiler.
I personally don’t recommend reading “The Thrill” chapters from Unfettered II before reading the book. IMO, it does contain spoilers – or at least things that significantly lessen the impact of certain events. PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT THEM HERE – at least not without whiting out the text.
@RobMRobM/CierNaes –
Thanks for the kind words. :)
My husband and I are both a bit weird so…in some ways he seems normal to us ;) I think he has a better shot than I did as a kid, at least, since while he struggles with some of the things I did, he is getting help way sooner. It IS painful sometimes to see the ways it makes things more difficult for him, but I am not even totally sure I would ‘wish it away’ if I could, any more than I think I would want to wish away certain quirks of my own (I would probably feel differently if he was on the spectrum to such an extent that he was nonverbal or completely unable to interact with people). He also has some secondary anxiety/mood disorder diagnoses (at least based on my own experience…I don’t really find anything particularly romantic/glamrous about those particular mental illnesses) and I would definitely wish those away but I think we are in a good start with him helping him meet his potential with his specifical abilities. Thankfully so far his school has been very supportive.
Re: Adolin and the murder of Sadeas
I really don’t want to comment about this because I really want to be surprised on how Brandon Sanderson will weave the whodunit in the story. But, it is Adolin we are talking about so it is really hard for me not to get involved. ;-)
First, this is the first whodunit that I have read that Brandon Sanderson wrote. There is some in Legion but since I don’t follow it closely, I am unsure. That said, this whodunit wherein Adolin is the one heading the investigation wherein he did the deed in the first murder, and the other one is truly unknown, it is actually an exciting premise. Adolin, as a character will grow. We only know him as the good son, the proper prince, champion duelist and very effective military general. But, he has a dark side. He killed Sadeas after all.
But, we as readers have always seen Adolin as a straight forward thinker. He is not simple. He is far from it. But, he has not shown creative thinking. With his new post as head investigator for a murder he committed, then we will definitely see a side of Adolin we have not seen before. Will it be good, will it be bad? I don’t know… though Alice already knows. (Hi Alice!!!) But, one thing I’m sure of… it will not be indifferent. We will see a different Adolin.
As for Adolin and Shallan – the murder of Sadeas will definitely affect their relationship. Again, I am unsure where Brandon is taking this ship. And I don’t want to speculate because Brandon made me eat my words when I said that he cannot write romance. LOL He gave us Wax and Steris and oh boy… what a lovely build to their happily ever after at least at the end of the book. As we know, it can still change.
So, will Oathbringer be Shallan and Adolin’s love story? I don’t know. I am hoping it is. It’s already written, so my hope and wish has already been answered, I just don’t know it yet whether it is a yes or a no.
Just my two cents! Happy Friday everyone!!!
Well, I’m safe from spoilers. Reading on my tablet I can’t seem to select and read the text. I’ve had a number of issues with posting but I agree this is better than the earlier re-reads.
I haven’t read Unfettered yet and will take the advice of Wetlandernw.
One thing to remember about how Dalinar views Adolin; this father sees his son has something of a redemption of the Blackthorn. Even Adolin knows Dalinar thinks of him as a “better man than he is”. He told that to Sadeas just before he killed him. it’s got to be hard living up to his father’s dream of him.
As for Renerin exposing Adolin, remember, he loves his brother. I doubt he would would do that.
Not read all the comments yet (so many:) ) so I appologized if this has been mentioned before.
I was rereading Edgedancer and read this part just after these OB chapters.
from the immortal being assembled from Cremling:
” But you did not come for a contest, did you? We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince. But not you. The others all ignore you… and that, I hazard to predict, is a mistake”.
OK he’s talking about radients. The surgeon is Kaladin. The liar is Shallan. The highprince is Dalinar.
Does that mean that the assasin is Renarin? Or does he talk about Jasna? She’s not with the others.
Is this another hint that Renarin may have done the second murder?
Quick thought on Oroden and Mara-the-apprentice: I think both things primarily demonstrate that Kaladin’s parents believed and (as much as possible) accepted their sons’ deaths, and made themselves move on. Lirin wouldn’t get Kaladin back, so he found another apprentice. And they had another baby – not to replace the others, but… well, to move on. Continue life.
@347 Kaboom. The assassin could be Szeth. He is with Nin aftet all
EvilMonkey @@@@@ 329
Braid_Tug @@@@@337
I sit corrected! I was not thinking of it from that standpoint. So many facts, so little brain power at times. :)
I’m late to the party, but I have an hour so I want to add my thoughts, be what they may.
Actually, most have already articulated my thoughts. Can I add anything new?
Shallan felt a pull when close to Dalinar then created a 3D map. (Very cool). I wonder if the tickle she felt near Renarin was a Radiant Push or Pull, like magnets attracting/repelling? What would she feel if close to brooding Radiant Kaladin? ;)
I agree the Shallan will discover Adolin killed Sedeas. For Adolin to confess will be his undoing and Dalinar will be heartbroken to know his own son broke the codes, so to speak. Isai will demand execution but Elkohar will degree banishment and book 4 will involve Adolin’s journey while in exile.
All my other thoughts go back to what I felt I missed in the first six chapters, but I guess that’s old news now. Oh well….
I wish there were more details with the wedding. What better opportunity for world building than a cultural milestone event? Here is our first Wedding and all we get is a Tiara? “A Woman’s gotta be prepared.” You bet your butt Navani has more than just a Diadem! That woman has resources and can get more than just a diadem on a mountain top! Shallan and Adolin ARE casually betrothed. How about a little awkward conversation? “Did you hear my Dad is finally marrying Navani? Maybe we should start thinking about where we’re going …” Maybe Shallan gets a little freaked out because she likes her independent place in Sebrial’s palace. “Sure, Adolin, oh look! What a lovely crackling arrangement Navani has created at the last minute. She’s so resourceful!” “A good lie,” hums Pattern.
On reflection, it could be that the wedding isn’t as important as I thought. It really was just to set up Dalinar’s conflict with the soldier/ardent, especially with him already appearing in the flashback. But storms! Weddings are important!!
And I miss Bridge Four! Lopen got his arm back! Did he wake up one day and, “Hey, guys, look! My arm works!” Or was it a slow progress, he’s not sure but he thinks there is feeling in his arm, did it just move on it’s own? I want to read about that! LOPEN is healed! It’s a miracle!
Where is the world building scene of Bridge Four trying out their powers on each other? “Hey Kaladin, we can spar with you now!” Let’s go! Or were they gathered around infused gems accidentally inhaling stormlight like at a hooki lounge. “Wait just a moment,” says Teft, “Something is going on. I feel funky. Let me try walking on that wall!!!”
And where is Kaladin’s good bye to his crew? Before he goes home, he gives rankings and orders to his crew or he leaves them with someone else. There’s a heartfelt goodbye, a passing glance as Shallan happens to walk by, and oh, by the way LOPEN HAS A NEW ARM!!!!
OK. I’m done now. Sorry for rambling and going backwards. But I feel better getting it out.
How long have Shallan and Adolin been promised to eash other? A couple months maybe. I think the fandom is jumping the gun on Kholin/Davar sharing hour. All they have to work with is their initial assumptions of each other and some light interactions. Hell, at this point in the story Shallan has shared more of herself with Kaladin than with her groom-to-be. That time will assuredly come. And since this is Brandon it won’t take until the back 5 of Stormlight for us to see it. Just saying it hasn’t happened yet and we probably won’t see it in our sample chapters.
@351 I also think that the interaction between Shallan and Renarin is a surge ability. ‘Shallan felt something prickle at the back of her neck. She shivered, and couldn’t help glancing over her shoulder’ This line really stood out to me because it was the first time I can remember her having a physical reaction to being near Renarin. She has always thought of him as an odd duck but that’s all. In the scene before the murder we see radiants using their skills together and it being triggered by a physical reaction the pulling. Which is followed by the same but different physical sensation in the next scene. That’s just to much of a coincidence for my liking. That leads me to think that they may be able to use their abilities to recreate the murder scene with illusion and truth seeing. It also makes me wonder if takes a bondsmith to create the links or if he is only needed to link more than two different radiant abilities together with the trade off being he is in control of the abilities. We already know that Bond Smiths weren’t very popular or at least the other radiants we wary of them. Dalinar had to be using Renarin sight ability and Shallan illusion ability to create what the stormfather sees while he is traveling around the planet. He was also forcing them, or at least compelling them to do so, which cant be a good thing. My best guess is that Shallan and Renarin will figure out they can use their abilities together and start recreating the murder scenes and have to keep their knowledge of Adolin deed secret so they can catch the this new killer.
@340 re: Shallan’s perspective on Adolin –
You state: “…it may be Shallan will lose interest in Adolin if he proves too complicated or too far from the picture perfect image she made up of their married life.“
2 things: 1) What “picture perfect image” are you referring to here? We’ve been in Shallan’s head a lot and I don’t recall her having a picture perfect married life expectation. Please cite specific examples. Or, are you just stating your perception as fact?
2) So far Shallan seems to be drawn to complicated people: Jasnah, Tyn and even Brightlord Broody-eyes (the major basis of the Kaladin/Shallan pairing is when she reflects on Kaladin’s complexities in WoR Chapter 77). Shallan’s life is complicated and she often seeks out mysteries, unresolved issues and/or challenges. Couldn’t finding out that there is more to her betrothed draw her even closer to him as much as it could repel her from him?
Anthony Pero @338
Thinking back to the rest of the text I think you’re right that a lashing changes gravity locally for the individual and nullified earths gravity at the same time. So good point there.
I would have to disagree that the drag from the air would have stopped Kaladin anytime soon. Drag is dependent on velocity, going slow there’s not much of a force to resist your motion. It would definitely bring you to a stop eventually just not quickly.
Think about riding a bicycle slowly, you can be as going very slow and still travel many yards before stopping -and that’s rolling friction of the bike in addition to air drag.
An even better example is probably swimming. A single stroke and you can glide about 10ft at a very mild velocity. And there’s no way Roshar’s air is more viscous than water. So I don’t see Kaladin stopping so quickly unless he was rising extremely slowly in the first place.
Maybe I’m in the minority, but so far I’m not really sold on a Shallan/Kaladin romance. Why can’t she just be interested/intrigued by him without it being a romance? I can see them being good friends, maybe each learning from each other about being a Radiant and their respective orders, or bonding over that experience, but it doesn’t have to be a romance.
I don’t say that out of any particular loyalty to Shallan/Adolin either. It may end up falling apart – or who knows, they may realize they complement each other in certain ways, and it will work. I agree that, assuming she finds out Adolin has his own secrets, that could go either way – she might either feel threatened by it, or she might view him more favorably/feel closer to him because of it.
I guess what I’m saying is that I’m not making a decision one way or the other – I don’t take for granted that their engagement will go through, but I’m not dismissing it either.
And it may be Shallan and Kaladin will get together (and Sanderson may very well sell it!) but for now I’m not committed to that ship either. And actually, I think Shallan/Adolin has the potential to be a more interesting relationship given their personalities and differences. Especially if Adolin is NOT a Radiant, which could then lead to an interesting juxtaposition and they could be a good balance for each other. In some ways I prefer from a storytelling perspective Adolin NOT being a Radiant, kind of like how you have the Han Solo character – somebody who is skilled/important to the story/has their own character path but doesn’t have the ‘special powers’.
Forgive me for asking – I’ve been trying to read along all the comments and people obviously have a lot to say about him – but it seems most people take for granted that Adolin IS a Radiant. Is that just a theory, or is there some WoB or detail I missed? Because it actually never occurred to me that he was but obviously this site has shown me there are a lot of things I missed ;)
Lack of stormlight and lack of regular storms? Will this be the introduction of Lift, her ability to process, food into stormlight and the teaching thereof or forcing the rest of the Radiants to figure out ways specific to their order to create it without storms? They’re going after Azir after all.
Renarin is a truth-something Radiant so he knows something, many things I imagine. Why has no one thought to question him about his spren and his abilities? Might be useful for an investigation, just saying.
Very much looking forward to everything else unfolding. I would guess Shallan will be the one to figure out about Adolin, but I think Renarin already knows. I think she’s going to have to be the one who will have to get Renarin to face facts about his brother like she had to face facts about her family. I believe this might be how she reconciles with Pattern because he will help her deal with this big lie.
I’m unsure whether Ryan @@@@@ 333 or Anthony Pero @@@@@ 338 is correct in their assumption about the nature of lashings, i.e., whether or not the ordinary force of gravity is preserved in an upward lashing. I would have chosen Anthony’s viewpoint, but I recall some discussion about such matters from either Brandon or Peter. However, I no longer remember if it was about the magic of Scadrial (Mistborn Trilogy) or Roshar If the former then I believe that Anthony is correct; if the latter, then Ryan is correct. In any case, there is an element being omitted. The net downward force after the opposite lashings (either Ryan’s (2g-g), or Anthony’s g) is just mg, where m is Kaladin’s mass. That downward force produces the change in his previous upward momentum (mv) from mv (upward) to 0. Given that force is approximately equal to the net change in momentum with time or mv/Dt, where Dt is the time interval wherein the upward momentum is reduced to zero, that required change in momentum is produced by the downward force, mg. The upshot is that Dt = t1, the time interval before the downward lashing was invoked. For a 2 ft elevation in Roshar, assuming that its gravity was 70% that on earth, I calculate t1 =0.42 seconds. However, this suspension in air is just for Dt + t1, i.e. less than a second since the downward force of gravity remains.
Kaboom@347:
The immortal hordling creature is called a Dysian Aimian. And the assassin he is referring to is probably Szeth. He’s not referencing Knights Radiant, he’s referencing Surgebinders. He says, as you quoted “We watch the others. The assassin…” etc… I’m inferring that to mean he is actually in the city specifically to watch Szeth, and he came across another Surgebinder, Stump.
Interestingly enough, I hadn’t put it together until seeing your quote, but the Dysian Aimians are most likely the authors of the back cover copy on the print editions. He is using the same titles for each character, and he refers to his people watching them, just like the back cover copy of The Way of Kings does:
He checks all the boxes. He is immortal and can remember the Last Desolation and the Heralds, and the Knights Radiant. He refers to watching four people, the surgeon, the assassin, the liar and the highprince. The exact same three names as the Dysian uses here. Seems pretty conclusive. I was just researching this last week, I can’t believe I missed that.
@358: Now I have a headache. A truly dizzying display of intellect.
In your discussions of lashings and gravity are you remembering Szeth’s assault on Jah Keved when he gave himself a half lashing up, rendering himself weightless?
Or maybe it was a quarter lashing up which reduced him to half his weight. Something like that.
@337, apologies, perhaps I wasn’t clear! I meamt that Shallan is definitely used to being the smartest/ most clever, in the sense that she’s quick-witted amd has as high opinion of her smarts. She doesn’t expect people she put down as ‘safe’ in her mind to surprise her, and she can be self centred. So I believe shallan thinks – not consciously, but she does – that is okay for her to trick people and withhold information, but god forbid someone does the same to her. Especially someone like Adolin, whom she relies on and believes trusts her. She won’t appreciate him lying to her, even if just by omission, so either she’s told/figures out what happened soon, or she’ll be upset when she does.
Also, someone up there mentioned that Kal having a brother means his parents decided to move on, accepting their children were dead. I think this holds true for Tien, but Hesina was already pregnant/had given birth by the time they got the news about Kaladin, and Lirin’s attitude in chapters 6 and 7 when he mentions Kaladin possibly staying shows IMHO that they haven’t truly moved on. They still dealt with everything in a much healthier way than Kaladin did, though.
@359 Anthony Pero. WHERE did you get that poem?! Your comment says the back of TWOK but I only have the ebook and book on CD and those don’t have it!
@358 right so with the right timing of the lashings he could hover. But the sequence would have to be 1 lashing up to accelerate then add two lashes down to slow then then once velocity = 0 remove one downward lashing to hover (assuming Anthony’s right with gravity not having any influence when one is lashed -I’m leaning that way now)
I have to point out ;) I did not forget mass as it factors out since f/m is a constant when relating to gravity. As you yourself proved since you solved for T1 without knowing Kaladin’s mass.
@364 – Here: (https://brandonsanderson.com/books/the-stormlight-archive/the-way-of-kings/)
Scroll down to “From The Back Cover”
Have y’all consulted the Are Arcanum about Lashings? I believe there’s some relevant info.
@210 Perhaps the “something worse” you reference could be Renarin watching Adolin or Dalinar or another loved one die. To me, watching a loved one in pain is much worse than experiencing the pain myself.
@258, IIRC, Urithiru was cut out of a mountain. Do you think that the mountain range would be a part of that same greatshell?
Re: 9 shadows (278, 280 and others). Let’s not forget that the Stormfather explained what the 9 shadows were in chapter 1.
“Nine shadows,” Dalinar whispered, trembling.
Nine shadows? The Unmade. His minions, ancient spren.
Storms. Dalinar knew of them from legend only. Terrible spren who twisted the minds of men.
@291 Thanks for the edgedancer spoiler. I haven’t read it yet…
@331 I loved your comment about hiring the assassin for next time
@338 how do you know about Roshar’s oxygen content and gravitational pull? Are there several WoB that I have missed? But I do agree with you on lashings changing gravitational pull instead of force
@347 My first thoughts on the “assassin” was Szeth, but since I have yet to read Edgedancer I don’t know.
Re Shallan/Adolin. The reason Shallan could connect well with Kaladin is because they both have been through traumatic experiences and were able to share their pain. Perhaps this is the part where Adolin gets to feel something similar to Shallan. I also feel that this could draw the pair closer together. But of course this is a RAFO.
Does anyone check at the bottom of messages for random comments?
@366 KiManiak
Thanks!
Lisa Marie @356
As far as I know Adolin is not a radiant, I will be happy if he becomes one. There maybe a some things that might be foreshadowing that he could become one. The two things that come to mind are the way he talks to his shard blade and the way he didn’t name it because he figured it had a name long ago. So some might wonder if he will revive his shardblade. Which would be awesome. We have heard from Brandon that it is possible to do this but really difficult. + we know Kalinin killed Syl but she was restored to life.
Thats a theory, but to my knowledge there’s nothing really solid that says Adolin will become a radiant
Ryan @355 Wetlandernw @367 The Ars Arcanum, at least in WoK, states explicitly that basic lashings can be applied fractionally (e.g. 1/2 lashing) and gives q calculation for how to render oneself weightless. P. 1257 in my trade paperback.
@368 regarding Uritheru, it’s a long shot, I know. And I don’t recall clearly whether it is explicitly stated that it was carved from the mountain or just that it appeared so. I can imagine a sort of chrysalis for a tremendously large pupa. I seem to remember the chasmfiend adhered itself to the rock with crem during its change to its adult form.
Further, I found a comment by the author regarding the harvesting of gemhearts from chasmfiends and the related unique spren, “Much like whaling in our own world, there is a big ecological price building for what is going on here. You are right to worry about this.” If Uritheru was indeed a greatshell, its spren would have been special too and its extinction could have been a driving event in the story.
@356: I am not sold onto the Kaladin/Shallan’s potential romance for a list of various reasons I am sure I will get the opportunity to post within future conversations. I do however think this is where Brandon is heading: there has been too many clues and I have somehow convinced myself having the majority of the fandom prefer his ship is strong indication of future development. Of course, this isn’t true, but I have somewhat resign myself. Adolin will not get resolution with his entangled romance or if he does, it probably won’t pass through Shallan. I suspect he’ll marry someone like Aladar’s daughter who keeps being mentioned… but from my current perspective, this will be a sad chapter to read.
As for Adolin being a Radiant, it is a frequent line of thought within the fandom. We do know having all your family members being Radiants increases your chances of becoming a Radiants, we know evolving around Radiants increases your chances. Thus, for Adolin never to become a Radiant means all orders would deem him completely and totally unacceptable. Or he never breaks, but this seems improbable right now. Hence, if he does not become a Radiant, then Brandon has to write in why.
For my part, I am for the optimum character development. I want characters to grow in surprising and interesting ways. I don’t want those characters to end up exactly where we were told they were heading early in WoK. Hence, I dislike all theories wanting Adolin to become the next Highprince or worst, the King. I don’t find them interesting because I feel they do not offer much character growth nor development: it feels pretty standard for a character such as Adolin. I yearn for something a little bit more out of the box, out of readers most classic expectations and I want his character to just evolve. I happen to think evolving may pass through accepting to become a Radiant too, but we’ll see how Brandon feels about it.
@363: I agree with you on Shallan. I agree she does think herself smart, she does find it acceptable to lie to others, but she may not find acceptable having others lie to her. I have read her character in ways which seems similar to yours. Hence, I do think it possible she will not support Adolin once he breaks the image she had of him, being disgusted he dared fool her… Come again, she may feel the same after finding out Kaladin lied about Helaran… Oh my, both boys avoided telling her something important, I wonder how she’ll deal with all of it.
@359
Thank you so much for writing that thought out! I remember thinking his words sounded familiar while reading Edgedancer, but by the time I had read the back of Way of Kings again, forgot about the shadow of a connection I had made. I seriously doubt the choice of words there is coincidence. I don’t know a ton about the Dysian Aimians however, so it will be interesting to learn what redeeming them and destroying them would mean exactly.
Regarding lashings, but completely without any Ars Arcanum or in-world basis, I view a lashing in some ways as similar to a jump. Your max jump would be a full lashing. As a child you explore your abilities, but eventually it becomes second nature and subconsciously you can hop up a step or over a log without doing a max jump or even specifically a half jump, just whatever jump you needed.
Kaladin is no longer a child. He lashed up and lashed down and was hovering. I think you guys are absolutely correct from a math perspective. He would have some upward velocity with zero acceleration if the lashings were the same. But the text didn’t specify full or half or any specific amount of lashing, just one up, one down. Once a lashing is in place can you adjust its strength? Or can you only add another or remove one? I don’t think it matters if you have become adept enough to do it quickly and without thought.
How’d you do it, Kal? Up, hard down, ease up on the down? Sure. Up, down, down, remove down? Yeah, that’s probably what I did. *wink*
Long story short, Kal hovered cuz he’s awesome.
Adolin@368 Well done, sir. Yes, always. :)
Adolin@368:
I’m sorry you got spoiled, man. Didn’t think to mark it. The OP clearly mentions there will be spoilers for Edgedancer and all published Cosmere novels in the comments.
Also, I believe that the information regarding Roshar’s gravity and oxygen content comes from Arcanum Unbounded, right before the Edgedancer novella. There are also WoBs on it prior to that, I believe.
There is no way that Oathbringer could be discussed without Edgedancer spoilers, which is why the caveat is included in the opening:
For anyone who didn’t realize that Edgedancer should be read before starting Oathbringer, it’s a pity – but there it is. Go read it. (Also, read the introduction to it, because there is good information on the planet/system there.) It is set before these chapters, and contains information you will want before November 14.
The only thing expected to be marked as spoiler is anything from The Thrill (released in the anthology Unfettered II) which is made up of slightly earlier versions of the first four of Dalinar’s flashbacks from Oathbringer. As all but one of these flashbacks are set further into Part One than the chapters we’ve reached, they do contain information we “don’t know” yet.
Re, the disappointed female scout:
I read this to be a female hoping to break out of some of the rules her society has placed on her and hope to be able to fight. Kind of like the first Far Dareis Mae (spelling?.?.?). Anyways, I think Shallan’s comment of still maintaining her feminine role was disappointing to her for this reason.
Wetlander @343:
Spoilers follow: roll over for the question.
Unfortunately, Unfettered II was published in 2016, and many people, including me, have read it. Indeed, there is reason to believe that many Sanderson fans would have bought Unfettered II precisely because it contained a story by Sanderson that shed light on Stormlight Archive characters. In my case, it was the sole reason to buy the book, and so far I’ve read The Thrill and no other other stories in the anthology.
To find out now that prior reading of Unfettered II essentially ‘spoils’ parts of Oathbringer is an unpleasant shock. Why would Brandon agree to include the story in Unfettered II and, at least by implication, encourage his fans to buy the anthology, when he intended to include the same events in his main opus, and knowing that prior reading of the anthology would lessen the impact of the upcoming main book?
Okay, finally caught up, and not much new to add, other than noting that, contrary to an earlier comment, we still don’t know of any proto-Truthwatchers other than Renarin and the late Ym
As an aside, I just love Steris. I think Steris’ is the finest character progression Brandon has done so far in any of his books, and should be required instructional material for all new authors.
I did not die.
I experienced something worse.
Has anybody mentioned Eshonai as a possibility for the author of Oathbringer? Obviously Jasnah is the prime suspect but if we’re looking at other possibilities I think Eshonai best fits the evidence available so far.
Where do we know that from? It is just speculation because there are multiple Kholin Radiants.
Shallan never had a dream of an ideal husband. She expected to be married by her father. That she likes Adolin is a pleasant surprise, but she never expected to marry for love.
@381: I’m not sure if Eshonai would have a reason to write a book (or a preface to a book), and even more so, to a book named Oathbringer. But at this point Eshonai is just as good as the other names put forward.
For my part, I’m going to take a stab and state my guess that the unnamed preface writer could be Talenel. He experienced something way worse than death, and being a Herald, is technically immortal from what we’ve seen (cognitive shadow or not, the heralds keep coming back, so he counts as “not dead” in my head!). But, again, he’s got the same issue as Eshonai: I’m not sure what reason he would have to write a book (or preface) to an in-world book that is/was named Oathbringer.
Blueeyes @381:
Oh, what an interesting idea! Shadesmar stuff would fit Eshonai, if she is an incipient Willshaper, as many suspect. OTOH, the sequence of events is wrong for her – “something worse” happened to her before she almost died, not as a result of it. Also, would Eshonai single out “women” as audience for her writings? IMHO, this distinction had to come from somebody within Vorinist culture and still influenced by it’s trappings – as Jasnah, for all her heresy, is, for example.
Re: Laral – it now occurrs to me that Kaladin is somewhat blinded by Vorinist prejudices as well, for all that he constantly rails against them. Because, shouldn’t he have charged _her_ to lead the Hearthstone population? I mean, the signs that she was the real ruler were all there, but he still turned to Roshone.
Isilel@384
Maybe he just doesn’t think she needs to be told her duty? Unlike Roshone.
Also, I got the impression he was actively trying not to think of her/ talk about her before she showed up. When the soldiers bring her up he thinks of her as ‘the manor’s lady’, in the previous chapters he remembers her as a teen but avoids thinking she’s in the manor now as well, and Roshone’s wife.
Also, we’ve seen instances of brightladies taking their husbands’ affairs in hand (the queen, the wife of Sadeas’s bridge supervisor) so I don’t think it’s unheard of in Vorinism. It’s just that the woman’s authority comes from her male relatives when it comes to male duties like administrating a city or a bridge crew. Furthermore, Vorinism is the culure Kaladin was raised in, which goes well beyond just a religion. Why should we expect him to break aqay from it?
@382: There is a WoB which explains how Radiants are being chosen, Brandon said the fact so many Kholins were chosen wasn’t pure happenstance. He said several things… First, he said many sprens (many, not all) were looking for individuals standing at the forefront of events as opposed to lonely people in recluse part of the world. This, in part, explains why the Kholin family has been a center of interest. Second, he said being close to a Radiant increased your chances of being chosen because sprens tend to agglomerate near the existing Radiants. When the time comes to chose a new knight, they will first look close to the existing one as opposed to go out into the wild world. Third, he said while Radiancy was not genetic, having your family members be Radiants increased your chances of you becoming a Radiant too both by proximity and by upbringing as the characteristics which attracted the sprens within your family members likely exists within you as well.
Knowing all of this, the only reason Adolin would never become a Radiant would be if ALL sprens from ALL orders deem him unacceptable. Or if he refuses to progress, refuses to make the jump, refuses to say the first oaths. Or if he never breaks enough for the magic to install itself, but unless Adolin never cracks and becomes so reluctant he would never move forward within any order, the idea he would NEVER become a Radiant does not hold the road based on what we know on the mechanism of the choosing. Or maybe he gets too attach to his dead Blade and it steers sprens away…
Choosing: this is an important term. The sprens are choosing, it isn’t a random function. You get chosen because sprens like you. Right now, there probably are lots of sprens around the Kholin and their entourage: we can expect more Radiants to pop out. And yes, the probably of both Elhokar and Navani to become Radiants is strong, though Navani really doesn’t look broken enough for it and Elhokar just unsuitable, but we’ll see.
I would also point out he fact Adolin is 23 years old: his life is not over yet. Dalinar became a Radiant while being within his fifties, so the idea Adolin should NEVER become a Radiant because it makes “too many Kholins Radiants” or because “the story needs a normal guy” do not hold the road very well. He will progress if this becomes the next logical step for his character.
On the Thrill: I have read it and I loved it. I am DYING to discuss the second flashback and the fourth. Great stuff in there.
Random Thought: I participated in a 24 hour vigil/run to remember POWs and MIAs today, it was a neat experience. It made me think of the Edgdancer’s ideals of remembering those who are lost (or is it forgotten?) either way it kind of fits.
I just realized, upon recently listening to some Phil Collins, that Invisible Touch is totally about Shallan. From whose perspective I can’t say for sure, but I think Kaladin. ;) Stay silly, everyone.
@@@@@ 387. Gepeto , There have been hints that cryptics (spren like shallans) have been watching Elkohar for a while, in the book already, which is why there has been speculation about him being a radiant. Also I am dying to discuss the thrill chapters
@@@@@ 379 AlisonWonderland the Thrill Chapters do not spoil the book or Its events.
Anyone else think the network of striations in Uruthiru that Shallan keeps noticing may be a “network” of gemstones? Kind of like veins of precious metals? I am thinking this may lead the characters to the realization that they don’t necessarily need gemstones to infuse themselves with Stormlight but can, rather, draw from the world itself??
morkus1 @383.
I have been thinking about the writer as well. There appear to be clues that the writer might be a male and yet it is known that the females are the ones who are tasked with that.
However we are reading an archive, but from what perspetive, from what era. I think it isn’t unreasonable to think that in the course of who knows how long since it was written, that the males might have taken up writing.
I wonder also about Talenel’Elin as well. What he experienced was worse than death, but again what all the Herald’s experienced was worse than death. They all returned multiple times to Damnation to be tortured of their own free will when they were killed during battle. It seems to me they were coerced into accepting that free will choice though.
Telanel’Elin suffered longer.
While it seems highly unlikely to me, Szeth also suffered a fate worse than death.
@384 @385 like Harry Potter, Kaladin has a “saving people thing”. Once he gets it into his head that he needs to “save” someone he almost has to be hit over the head with a sledgehammer to get him to see that maybe they don’t need his help. I conjecture that this may be the “mistake” that he made with Tara. But he has always had a blind spot where Laral is concerned. He was totally clueless that Laral was encouraging him to go to war to win shardblde so that his darkeyed status would not cause her status to drop considerably. I could be wrong about that, but she has always been shown to do whatever was best for herself. Nor that I can truly blame her, her options were severely limited by her culture.
@389: I am one of those readers who think the sprens watching Elhokar aren’t doing it because they want to bond him, but because he is a the monarch of a powerful nation. If Elhokar becomes a Radiant, I honestly do not see him be a Lightweaver. I do not find it an interesting story arc for his character.
@387 @390
Mjosman, I was going to bring up the conversation between Kaladin and Elokar when Elokar talks about seeing things in the shadows, things that fled when Kaladin was near. My first thought was cryptics though I can’t remember why. Since then I wondered if it was a good spren or a void spren or something like that that’s hanging around him.
Any thoughts?
Mighty easy to say the flashbacks don’t spoil anything in Oathbringer when you haven’t read Oathbringer yet. Just sayin’.
@395 Ryan
I had similar thoughts. Think of how the cryptics would lov the lie of Elhokar’s kingship. Elhokar is King but In actuality Dalinar rules. That is why I can see Elhokar becoming Odium’s champion. Envy and jealousy have turned better men than Elhokar to the dark side.
Also, has anyone given thought to Elhokar’s Queen? Is she “evil” or simply venal? After all Jasnah was considering having her assassinated. Why?
@396
Making me cry over here, Alice. ;)
I’m eagerly anticipating Kaladin getting to Kholinar to have more insight into the queen, what’s happening in the city and attempting to enable another Oathgate. There’s a lot that needs to happen there and I hope the fast and furious pace continues.
Ninja’d that 4x hunny. :P
@398 She seems to be a bad queen of the guilty religious type. Why not eliminate her before she can damage the dynasty? Also known as the Barrayaran solution.
Okay, I have one thing to say right now. KALADIN YOU ARE THE BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!! I wonder who killed that guard. What if it was the same group who tried to kill Jasnah and now there trying to make Adolin get in much deeper trouble and blame him for a spree of murders.
Is there a WoB on how advanced prior societies on Roshar were before past Desolations? In particular, did any society on Roshar achieve a society level equivalent to America in the late 20th century/early 21st century? Did any society reach a level of technology wherein members of the society traveled by space to other systems in the Cosmere?
If Brandon has not answered the above questions, would somebody be willing to ask this question at one of the OB book signings. None of the book signings will be near me.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@@@@@ 403 – AndrewHB – I will ask that. I’m going to the Houston signing. Yay!!! Please remind me before the date but I will put it in my calendar just in case. :-)
@403 – AndrewHB I’ve had similar thoughts but have yet to ask, though I have a feeling they’ll be RAFO’s. I live in the Provo area so you could say I’ve had a decent amount of opportunities to talk to the man himself, except that I usually draw a blank and end up asking him something stupid.
@388, Stormbrother: that’s awesome you did a run like that. I’ve not heard of a 24 hour run for POWs before.
Re: Shallan and Kaladin, I feel like it gets ignored by many fans that he killed her brother. True, she hasn’t thought about that aspect much. But just throwing that back out here.
@400, RC: congratulations in the 4th hunny.
FarDareisMaiGrandma @@@@@ 398.
I don’t remember which set of interludes but there is an interlude where much is revealed about her character, and by that I mean in the sense or morality. In “Words of Radiance” and more towards the end of the book. I am sorry I am not more helpful as to location. I have audiobooks, not the books, yet. The reader must draw their own conclusion about if the queen is or is not evil…
Found it at the Stormlight Archive Wikia here:
http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Words_of_Radiance:_Interlude_12
@398 & 407 I don’t think we know enough about the queen to call her evil. The impression I got is she is uncaring of her subjects and indulges heavily in vice. I don’t think that makes her evil, just a poor queen. I feel Jasnah was just looking out for her brother/family. She hired the assassin to watch and observe only for an extended time. The possibility of assassinating her would most likely be only if she was a threat too the family.
I need to reread that interlude, but I’m guessing the queen will be involved in some shady organization, probably Taravangian and his Book Club. I think Jasnah’s near request for her assassination means she’s more than just some self-serving, entitled noble who is bad at running the country while king and high princes are away. So she is intentionally destabilizing the country and making way for T’s consolidation of power if he ever manages to rid the world of Dalinar. Or perhaps she is a stooge for some administrator on T’s team and Jasnah held off on the assassination because she had an inkling of it and is looking for the puppeteer.
Braid_Tug@406 Thanks! I imagine the 4x hunny is 4x as delicious and 4x as rare. I hovered for a while after 398 was in so I could claim my first ever, even though I’ve been around awhile. WoT rereads were my first exposure to Tor’s site, but this serialized format with an enforceable pace is the first one where I’ve been able to contribute much at all. It’s our own non-evil Book Club!
But you never know what’s lurking in the shadows!
sndmn @408. As I said, it is up to the reader to determine that. The interlude casts her in a very negative light as a queen,and on thinking of it more clearly and longer, in my eyes she is evil. Murdering someone who is trying to help the poor and destitute because they dare to stand for what is right, is evil, from my point of view.
@391 I am very curious about where gemstones come from on Roshar. Are they mined, or are they ALL gemhearts? I mean, spheres seem to be pretty universal as currency, except in maybe Shinovar, so there must be millions and millions of them out there. Are they harvested from cremlings and whitespines and shit?
If I ever manage to go to a signing, that is absolutely the question I’m asking.
” child of peace”. The meaning of Kaladins brothers name. A name like that makes me think that he will grow to be Dalinars champion, will even have great teachers!
Isilel @384:
I don’t think Kaladin asking Roshone to lead Hearthstone has anything to do with Vorin prejudice. True, Kaladin may have noticed that the soldiers in the Roshone household consider the Lady as the boss because they interact most frequently with the two of them. However, I would think that to the general population of the town Roshone is their Lord (appointed by the King), and they would be more inclined to follow his leadership and his orders than they would Laral’s. Kaladin was only being sensible and correct.
mjosman @390: Thanks for the reassurance. Maybe I misinterpreted Wetlander’s warning.
Wetlander @396: Drat! Just when I started to breathe easy! I thought mjosman must have been one of the beta readers as well from his confident pronouncement.
@407, 408, 409. All valid hypothoses re the queen. I am very very intetested in learning more about the queen. Considering the fact that marriages among the elite are almost always arranged for political/monitary gain I would expect that she would either have some familial connection to Sadeas or possibly Tarivangian. In either case it could mean she was stirring up trouble
Alisonwonderland, mjosman: In my opinion, reading The Thrill before reading Oathbringer will detract from the experience. There are no huge plot-destroying spoilers, but there are several things which work far better as story-telling devices if you read them in the order presented in the book rather than getting them from reading the flashbacks first. At the very least, they are better learned in context of the flashback itself, not by someone casually mentioning some detail in these discussions.
If I’d had a long enough 2×4, one of the other beta readers would have got it upside the head at one point for exactly this sort of thing. He mentioned one “little thing” that didn’t seem significant to him, but totally ruined the impact of its arrival in the story for me. A brilliant little dramatic moment, with the drama removed because I already knew that one thing.
Don’t do that to people.
@414 , 417 My confident pronouncement was based on Brandon’s Preface/Foreward? to the Thrill Chapters. However after reading comment 417 and the Thrill chapters again, I would Agree with Wetlander@417.
I think that the Thrill chapters might also have small spoilers for things like (better not to mention, some have different definitions to the word ‘spoiler’)
@402: Interesting idea. I have read those theories, but I fail to see what motives the Ghostblood would have for the murder spree. Why would they target Adolin? He is not dangerous to their goal: he is unimportant. I also seriously doubt they had access to both the body and the murder scene in order to have the capacity to reproduce it.
@406 Braid Thug: Kaladin having murdered Helaran has been abundantly discussed and readers opinions on the matter differ. There are those who think Shallan ought not to be angry as she was able to rationalize Amaram merely killed an enemy soldier during a legit battle. Hence, she ought to quickly forgive Kaladin. There are however those who believe the fact Kaladin withhold the information in a moment where they were trading confidence will hamper their relationship. If Shallan can likely take someone like Amaram might have killed her brother, knowing the only guy she ever told her darkest secret did it, but refused to share it could be unsettling.
I am among the second group of readers. While I do not think it will be an overly significant plot point, I think seeing how Adolin lied to her, how she will later find Kaladin lied to her too… I can see a potential story arc where she goes hard on Adolin for falling at being the perfect Prince she thought he was, for having deceive her only to realize the other man she potentially like has done the same. It might make her more amendable to Adolin’s initial lack of forwardness. Or not. Either way, I do think Shallan will make it a bigger deal then it needs to be.
@417: A lot of the Thrill spoilers have run rampant… unmarked for spoilers, especially on the 17th Shard. The “big things” are properly marked, but Shshshs’s real name for instance has been spoken freely for a while now. I would warn people to avoid it if they want to retain the “full experience”. It is tricky ground to work on. I have read them and it is difficult not using the information I got in them. Since I am notorious for always spoiling myself, I am not too worried about my reading experience. If anything, I love getting the small tip bits which confirm my theory making (and I think I have gotten some already). I mean, I often read the ending of books before I get to the end… I say it is part of my “reading experience”, but I have convinced myself NOT to do it for Oathbringer. We’ll see if I manage on November 14th.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Renarin killed the second person because he knew that Adolin killed the first one. To cover up for Adolin. I say this assuming Adolin has an alibi.
@420: I also fail to understand how killing an innocent man out of his father’s allies is actually helping Adolin. Everyone was ignoring Sadeas being murdered, now they aren’t.
I also think you are jumping to hasty conclusions. The only reason people are assuming Renarin knows anything is because Shallan’s is uncomfortable around Renarin and feels he must behave abnormally. Except he isn’t. Also, many within the fandom have theorized Renarin would “know” because he “sees”.
I say all of these conclusions are terribly hasty, at this point in time within the story. The probability of Renarin killing innocent people in an ill-timed attempt at protecting his brother (when all it did really is push him one step closer towards admitting his guilt) is not strongly supported by the current narrative. It also goes against what we know of Renarin: he is a quiet observant boy people often find disconcerting because his social cues are “off” due to him being autistic. He loves his family and his brother, but he wouldn’t kill innocent people anymore than Adolin would.
Kal’s Gal @@@@@ 420 said “I think it’s pretty obvious that Renarin killed the second person because he knew that Adolin killed the first one.” What textual support do you have for stating that Renarin knew Adolin killed Sadeas?
IMO, there is no textual support that anybody other than Adolin knows who killed Adolin. I do think that as of the time frame in Chapter 9 of OB, Ialai knows Adolin killed Sadeas — either she saw the murder directly or one of Sadeas’ soldiers saw the murder and told Ialai. However, that is just a guess. I cannot point to one printed word that either directly or indirectly supports my position.
Gepeto @@@@@419. I think Shallan will surprise you. IMO, she will not turn on Kaladin for murdering Helaran. She will come to realize that Kaladin was defending those who could not and that Kaladin was not at fault. This does not mean she did not love Helaran. It is ok for her to mourn Helaran but not be upset at Kaladin.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Gepeto at 419 says:
I don’t know about this. They managed to leave a note for Shallan, stuck to a wall, and meet with her at the end of WoR. They have interests and resources we know nothing about. I wouldn’t discount them so readily.
Also, many commenters have suggested Adolin is the reason for the second murder. Even though I happen to agree, I don’t think we have any evidence to support this.
@422: Shallan is not always rational and when it comes to her family, she hardly ever is. Too many people are suspecting her to just “accept” the lies she was told on the basis it was “logical” to lie or on the basis “she ought to know there were no other choices”. Human beings aren’t solely ruled by reason.
My thoughts are it isn’t the fact Kaladin killed Helaran which will get to her, but the fact he didn’t see fit to actually tell her.
@423: If a plot line demands too many twists and turns to be plausible, then it usually isn’t a good idea to go forward with it. Hence, having a murder case being solved by: “Oh but this individual being involved with this secret society had access to both the crime scene and the body despite being absolutely no clue whatsoever they did” isn’t extraordinarily satisfying for readers. I mean, I can only speak for myself, but there currently is too much happenstance to have an unnamed never seen before someone within the Ghostblood hiding within the unamed never seen before group of soldiers having found Sadeas’s body for it to work as a story arc.
The only way I could see a secret society being involved with the copycat murders is if Ialai is involved with one and seek their help. Any other theory surrounding them having done it relies on the story making too many implausible flip onto itself, IMHO.
Adolin might not be the reason why there has been a second murder, but I sincerely doubt it was the Ghostblood: they just did not have the means to be there and if they were there, then it relies on too much on “deus ex machina” to be plausible. In shorts, having the author say “they were there because I want them to have done it” doesn’t work out, YMMV but if Brandon wants to go with this plot arc, he is going to have to make it plausible which it currently isn’t.
@419 – I don’t know how others feel about it, but I think your last paragraph was definitely spoilery and needs to be whited out. Even knowing that something gets revealed is a spoiler from some points of view.
AndrewHB @422 – I get the same feeling too about Shallan’s reaction regarding her brother, but then I think it will have a lot to do with the next ‘layers’ of truth she needs to confront in order to progress as a Radiant.
Every time I go back to Shallan’s memory’s of Helaran, he comes across as really creepy to me, while she clearly remebers him as the best person ever… which sounds alarm bells for me.
We know Shallan had reached at least her current level of ‘Radient-Heightening’, if not more, by the time her mother tried to kill her as a child and we’ve yet to see further back into her history… so what ‘truths’ did she speak as a child to attain that level? What had she been through to require those truths? What damage had her soul received by that time to allow the nahel-bond to be forged?
I get the impression it may be a mistake to assume Helaran was someone Kaladin would even need to be forgiven for having killed in self defence… let alone this ‘murder’ talk.
Bottom line, I think Shallan’s ‘memories’ of Helaran are suspect at best and outside of those, all we have to go on are a scene where he’s (assuming it is even him of course ;-) ) shown to wantonly slaughter his way through a field of infantry in order to commit a separate murder. That really doesn’t sound like the shinning pillar of brotherly perfection that Shallan currently remembers him to be.
@425: I whited it out but I honestly fail to see how this was a spoiler.
@426: I don’t think Kaladin needs to be forgiven for having killed Helaran, but I do think Shallan may see it differently.
i strongly object to characterization of Kaladin’s killing of Helaran as a ‘murder’. Helaran died in battle, and calling it a murder is a serious distortion of the facts.
Even if Adolin doesn’t become a radiant in the near future, wouldn’t he count as a squire to Dalinar and begin to acquire or exhibit Radiantish abilities… would this business with Sadeas interfere with that progression towards a squire to a guy bonded to the Storm Father?
@409, RC: “Taravangian and his Book Club.”
Hahaha! I’ve not seen the Diagram described like that before. Too funny.
And this being a “non-evil boom club.” I like that.
Of course, those fans that are not reading these might say otherwise. :-D
People, please be nice if anyone sees Brandon next weekend at the Salt Lake Comic Con.
@411, SunDR: I believe gemstones are found all over Roshar in mines, like on Earth. But the gem-hearts are abnormally large emeralds. Emeralds are used for soulcasting food.
Even on Earth large, clear emeralds pulled from the ground are super rare.
But on Roshar some groups have taken the cut gems and put them in glass for money.
The hobby jeweler in me really wants to know who / how stones are selected as: money grade, soulecasting grade, faberial grade, or jewelry grade.
But so far my questions to Peter have not gotten an answer. It might be too small of a detail for Brandon to think about yet. I’m not sure he has any lapidary arts friends around.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed that one day we get a gem cutter on Roshar Interlude character. But I know that’s a very remote chance.
@429 it’s my understanding that only Windrunners have squires. It’s their “combining powers bonus”.
For those who have read the Thrill Chapters and don’t mind spoilery discussions
I kept thinking Kadash was referring to Dalinar killing Tanalan’s 6 year old but I’ve read both the Thrill and Chapter 4 of Obr again and I saw that Kadash was at the battle were he killed a few kholin soldiers while overcome with the Thrill and I suspect that When his wife was taken hostage he killed every last man and woman and child at the Rift city while overcome with the thrill which is what spooked Ardent Kadash.
Edit. I just realized this should go into the Ch 4-6 discussion but I don’t think anyone will see it there so forgive me.
Perusing the 430+ comments posted, a few have either postulated that Adolin is proto-radiant or will never be a radiant. The closest to come to my theory is Ryan@370 in his response to Lisa Marie@356… I agree with his assertions on Adolin’s proto-radiant status (talking to his blade and lack of naming of the blade). Add to this the Kholin family is a nexus for radiants and that the radiants are “broken” or require their souls to be prepared for bonding.
With Adolin having committed manslaughter (using the American justice terms, Adolin did not commit Capitol Murder. His crime is more in the area of manslaughter “death from manslaughter is charged when the malicious action cannot be established”). The result of his crime is his soul was damaged. We have yet to determine the extent of the damage. Thus preparing him to become a KR, if he is willing to take the required oaths.
Of the 10 Orders, I also believe that Adolin would fit best with the Stonwards. From the Stormlight WIKI, “…there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability.” That is a pretty apt description of Adolin.
@432:
I think carrying forward conversations like this is fine, especially given this isn’t a re-read, but a first time read.
@431 I don’t think the KR in the vision at the pure lakes was a windrunner and she definitely had squires. My understanding is that it is just more prevalent amoung certain orders like windrunners.
@423: About your spoilers, yeah, these were my thoughts too. The elements you have mentioned are two of the four major revelations I am dying to be able to discuss more freely. I felt it changed our perception on a great many things.
@434: Adolin’s current status is “normal human being”. He currently is not a proto-Radiant nor does he have a working Nahel Bond. The greatest indication for it is the fact his injuries aren’t healing (and I still think the fandom needs to pay more attention to Adolin’s hand: the description we have been given of it indicates either the injury is more serious than treated for and/or he really worsen it). If he were a proto-Radiant, even prior to having said the first oath, then he would heal even if slower than fully fledged Radiants. We have ample examples of non-advanced Radiants being able to heal themselves unconsciously: Dalinar has been doing it for years. Thus Adolin most definitely isn’t a Radiant or a proto-Radiant. Mind, the same thoughts apply to Elhokar…
Most discussions are thus about Adolin’s future status: can he grow into a Radiant? This is where many people disagree though not all thoughts are entirely rational. Many do not want Adolin to become a Radiant merely because they either have little interest into his character or they hate having all Kholins being Radiants or they like having a “normal guy” being tossed into the lot. I say we have to look at how the magic works on Alethkar. You are being chosen by sprens based on your personality. Being close to Radiants, having your family members be Radiants seriously increases your chances of being “spotted”. Hence, seeing how much attention from sprens the Kholin family is getting, the only way Adolin could never make it to Radiant is if he is deemed completely unsuitable by all sprens for “reasons”. I find it unlikely, though not impossible. Another idea is Adolin himself may not want to become a Radiant…
This being said, I disagree with the Stoneward theory. I feel it relies on what Adolin has been executing as a day job more than whom Adolin has been, as a person. One thing we ought to remember is Adolin doesn’t like the war, he never wanted to be a soldier: he became one out of necessity because he hoped by doing so his family would go back to what it was prior to Gavilar’s death. So even when he goes into soldering, Adolin does it out of concern for his family, he does it in an attempt to “fix” something he deems “wrong”. I also disagree Adolin’s character growth needs to pass through being “stronger” as implied by the Stonewards oaths as my perspective is he has to do the complete opposite. In shorts, because he refuses to not be seen as strong, he has shelved and ignored many pains. Accepting the man he really is honestly cannot pass through him further amplifying what essentially is his coping mechanism. Thus, I disagree with ideas Adolin needs to grow into becoming more resolute, more brave, more obedient then he already is. I say his growth has to pass through the opposite, through letting his inner self speak more freely. You know, the inner self which has him save prostitutes, give out Shards to darkeyes, stay in prison for Kaladin, kill Sadeas…? The inner self which makes him act based on what he feels is “right” independently of what laws or codes or honor are saying. That’s the Adolin I want and I hope he can find his path, but losing himself into the warfare he hates, becoming an object of mass destruction when he despises butcheries, basically ignoring every instinct which has made him “Adolin” in order to completely give himself away to either obedience or stoic sacrifice really isn’t going to do it. Not for me as a reader. Mind I guess Brandon could go where ever he wants with the character, but my current perspective are those speculative arcs go against the character we have read so far and do not yield optimum character development. So we’ll see.
Anthony Pero @@@@@ 360, Sorry to disappoint you (if you weren’t being ironic), but my comment @@@@@358 wasn’t really a solution to the hovering issue. It only showed that Kaladin could remain momentarily motionless at some arbitrary height above ground. The real issue is how to remain suspended in air for an arbitrary period. The answer is given in the Ars Arcanum at the back of the WOK book, as Wetlander and Wandering have suggested. Tommy @@@@@ 361 also found a reference to half lashings by Szeth in the book. The Arcanum states that a half lashing is one wherein half of the mass is directed towards the intended attractor leaving the other half under its prior influence. The general impression gained is that the gravitational surge changes the local gravitational field so that the associated gravitational force can be directed at will. A basic lashing upwards moves the gravitational force from its normal direction to an upward one. Hence, Kaladin’s initial upward acceleration resulted from that reversal of gravity. The subsequent lashing downwards cancelled the upward acceleration. When his upward motion ceased, he did a half-lashing upward. The half-lashing is qualitatively different than a full lashing. It acts on half the mass without cancelling the earlier downward force on the other half. The two forces are thereby cancelled leaving Kaladin suspended. Of course, the ability to effect only a fraction of your mass is mysterious – but, then, so is the ability to use the stormlight energy to direct the local gravitational pull in the chosen direction.
I was thinking there might be some sort of magical blocker making it so Shallan couldn’t sketch Urithiru properly, but then I realized this is just setting us up later for Kal to take her for a fly (fall) to get a better view/take a memory of the big U. This love triangle may kill me.
Would it be possible to get a digital version of the Light Map??? Tor/Sanderson this definetly should be an available download where people can cruz through the map either through a Windrunner POV and/or Regular POV
Guys does anyone know how I can contact Brandon or Peter directly, I have a question/speculation to ask about and I would love a direct answer since I will never get to meet the man in person because of the country I live in

trimerion @441: Brandon’s Contact page at his website is https://brandonsanderson.com/contact/ Instructions are there; in particular, note that he says it may be months before he’s able to get back to you.
@438:
I mostly just used it as an excuse to misquote The Princess Bride. :)
I live on the wrong continent, too, but the people who can go to signings often collect questions to ask here on Stormlight-related posts before signings. Just post your question here and someone might ask it for you.
@440, Joshua: I’m trying to figure out your Light Map question.
There is a LEGO artist, Rick Martin. He builds the books as set pieces. He now has a website, but more of his stuff can be found on Facebook
http://secondbrickfast.com/index.php
Tor even published some of his work.
You may have to wait on him to build OB to see the different levels.
I think I would like to see this continue for the rest of the book, I mean not to read on this but being able to comment on every 3 to 5 chapters or so. It would be interesting, plus it would cause me to slow down and think of what I’m reading rather then rushing through and feeling drained at the end, damn high spren.
I’ve seen a few other people express interest in writing down their thoughts every few chapters so i would think this would be a nice way to do it as a group
@129 I definitely got the sense that Renarin knows it was Adolin that murdered Sadeas, whether by his powers, or just because he knows his brother really well. However, I don’t think that Renarin was the killer of the second victim. Partly because he is just barely learning to fight (thanks to his time with Bridge Four) so I doubt that he would have the skills to kill so precisely as to make it look like Sadeas’ murder. And also because I don’t think that a Radiant could do something like that without offending his spren. Granted, I’m not sure what oaths Truthwatchers make beyond the First Ideal, but murder seems like it would be against them.
@130 I agree with you about Shallan and the scout. I got the sense that the scout wants more than the typical feminine traditions. (It kind of reminds me of Elantris when Sarene teaches the women how to fence). I think we will see more from her, and other women with similar desires in the future. Also, I’ll have to check, but I believe Lyn (the scout) was one of the ones that worked with Shallan on the map in WoR. I believe that Dalinar also mentions her at some point during the final battle, as Teshav’s daughter, I think? I’ll have to check.
On a separate note, you just have to wonder and laugh at what’s probably going through Kaladin’s mind when he voluntarily asks for horses. :)
I just have to say, is kaladin the best or what cause I mean come on! Summons shardblade. Boom problem solved. Glows. Problem solved. So awesome. I know I’m a fangirl when I read words of radiance for the fifth time and still can’t get over kaladins heroic moments.
Wildstorm @448
I hear that! I have listened to the audiobooks of TWoK and WoR 4 or 5 times since this time last year when I purchased them from Audible. Going to listen to them one more time between now and when OB comes out.
While I am thinking about it, what time are the chapters posted on Tuesday? I am -6:00 UTC. Appreciate it if someone can let me know
@449, from what I know, it gets posted at 9am US Eastern time, which makes it <12 hrs from now!
So excited for new chapters in the morning! Eastern is on Daylight Savings now, so 9am is UTC – 4. So @Spiritwalker51, you should see them at 7am (as long as I’m handling my time zones correctly).
I hope we get a Jasnah appearance in the main storyline and she’s not relegated to interludes/epilogues. I know she’s not considered a main character, but she needs some screen time after last book!
I was hoping someone would join me and Adolin@368, but time is running out…
Perhaps we are the only OCD posters? I wouldn’t think so…
Following is the Lyn extract from Words of Radiance. It explains why Shallan felt comfortable handing her sketches to Lyn, and why Lyn felt comfortable flipping through the sketches.
“Scout reporting in,” a messenger woman said, bursting into the tent, letting in a gust of the wet wind. This unexpected wind . . . it almost felt like the wind before a highstorm.
“What is the report?” Inadara asked. The severe woman was supposed to be a great scholar. She reminded Shallan of her father’s ardents. In the corner of the room, Prince Renarin stood in his Shardplate, arms folded. He had orders to protect them all, should the Parshendi try to break onto the command plateau.
“The large center plateau is just as the parshman told us,” the scout said, breathless. “It’s only one plateau over, to the east.” Lyn was a solid-looking woman with long black hair and keen eyes. “It’s obviously inhabited, though there doesn’t seem to be anyone there right now.”
“And the plateaus surrounding it?” Inadara asked.
“Shim and Felt are scouting those,” Lyn said. “Felt should be back soon. I can do a rough drawing of what I saw of the center plateau for you.”
“Do it,” Inadara said. “We need to find that Oathgate.”
Shallan wiped a stray drop of water—fallen from Lyn’s coat—off her map, then continued drawing. The army’s path from the warcamps inward had allowed her to extrapolate and draw eight chains of plateaus, two each—mirrored—starting from the four “sides” of the Plains and working inward.
She had almost completed the last of the eight arms reaching toward the center. This close, earlier scout reports—and what Shallan had seen herself—allowed her to fill in everything around the center. Rlain’s explanations had helped, but he hadn’t been able to draw out the center plateaus for her. He’d never paid attention to their shapes, and Shallan needed precision.
Fortunately, earlier reports had almost been enough. She didn’t need much more. She was almost done.
“What do you think?” Lyn asked.
“Show it to Brightness Shallan.” Inadara sounded displeased, which seemed her normal state.
Shallan glanced over Lyn’s hastily sketched map, then nodded, turning back to her drawing. It would be better if she could see the center plateau herself, but the corner this woman had drawn gave Shallan an idea.
@444 birgit I will post later today (its already Tuesday here) when the new chapters come out.
But essentially my question boils down to, … which order of KR is analogous to engineers, we already know the general, light infantry, battle medics, mp, demolitionist, supply and transport, information analist, and spy/deception, … but which order were the engineers?
@@@@@ 453 Trimerion – I took down your question and will ask it when I go to the Houston signing on November 18. There will be earlier signings before that, so maybe someone will ask him on the launch itself. Nevertheless, I have it on my list
@451: I don’t think jasnah will appear in this part though, Part 1 (start of chap 1-3) shows this:
Dalinar * Shallan * Kaladin * Adolin
So far Adolin’s POV has yet to appear!
trimerion @453 – It depends on what you mean by “the engineers,” but I think you’re talking about the Willshapers.
@ 365 358 338 333
So a lash upward would apply an upward gravitational force to 100% of the mass of the body.
To make one weightless there would only need to be a half lash upwards. Upward gravity on 50%, downward gravity on 50%.
So at the very end to be hovering a bit above the ground, the easiest way to think about it would be a full lash upward and a half lash down. Full lash upwards means gravity upwards on 100% of mass (gets you off the ground) then a half lash down means gravity down on 50%. So you have 50% up and down (now you’re hovering). Some other combos that could do it: 3/4 lash up, 1/4 down or 9/16 lash up, 1/16 down (this last would also provide very slow upward acceleration when only the upward lash is applied. And would use less Stormlight. It’s most likely something like this Kaladin did). If he got super efficient he’d get into 32nds, 64ths etc.
Efficient lashing could also account for deceleration. If his initial upward lash was one that slowly shifted him upwards (say 33/64th lash upward, just an example) then he wouldn’t have much upward acceleration anyway and when he did the downward lash (causing equal upward and downward pull) wind resistance could stop him.
From WoR Ars Arcanum:
“Windrunner to make himself or herself lighter by binding part of his or her mass upward. (Mathematically, binding a quarter of one’s mass upward would halve a person’s effective weight. Binding half of one’s mass upward would create weightlessness.)”
General-Bondsmith
Light Infantry-Windrunner
Medics-Edgedancer
Transportation-Elsecaller
MP-Skybreaker
Intelligence-Truthwatcher
Demolition-Dustbringer
Covert Ops-Lightweaver
Going by that logic it can only be Willshaper or Stoneward. Judging on their powers I would probably classify Willshapers as Scouts and Stonewards as the Engineers. This is of course my interpretation.
Gepeto@437, gosh I sure wish I as mighty as you… I stated Adolin was a proto-radiant or a radiant in its original state… or, um, normal. You took a whole paragraph to tell me that Adoliln wasn’t a radiant. I never said he was a radiant. You also used his wrist as a proof of his non-radiant status. IIRC, I never addressed his wrist. But just for fun, let’s talk about that wrist. Why is it still so sore? I have several ideas that fit the facts thus far presented in the text of the two books… In no order of importance here are a few possible reasons:
-Adolin re-injured his wrist climbing out of the tub, but slipped on a bar of soap.
-He re-injured his wrist in a practice dual… just trying to get back into action as it were.
-He re-injured his wrist whilst in a fegue state during the second murder
-Bla, bla, bla… just too many possibilities. The injury is of note, but requires additional data prior to any supposition on its importance.
Your second paragraph is a long restatement that the Kholin family is a nexus for radiant activity. But there are many fans that do not agree with his possible selection as a KR… no need to put them down for their opinions. Their views are just as valid as any other opinion. Glad you agreed with my supposition that the odds of being a KR are greatly increased by being associated with a nexus of current radiants.
Your third paragraph is a pretty strong put down of my theory. Gee, sorry we lesser readers cannot have our personal views, theories, or beliefs. Glad you are here to put us in our place.
This blog is similar to the WoT blog, ruled by a few high and mighty. I, as on that blog, shall not post again.
@458 thats almost exactly the same layout I came up with, my guess is willshapers, but im not sure,
@456 when I say engineers im referring specifically to things like fabrial manufacture and development (think Navini and her role)
@454 Thanks I really appreciate it, if you can find out the (battle/military) role of both the willshapers and stonewards that would be amazing
Watcher @450
rccampbe@451
Thank you both. I live from Tuesday to Tuesday!
Has anyone read through all the chapters contiguously? I have read them as units of 3 them we all pick the chapters apart, read again and again, consider and theorize or rather make suppositions, but I am thinking I need to read all the chapters and let them speak to me and lead me.
It is possible we might get a different impact reading them that way.
That is my go to plan, then sleep, setting my alarm for 0700.
Goodnight readers!
Alisonwonderland @@@@@ 452
Thanks! I remember listening to that, didn’t put it together that it was the same person.
That would tend to create a bond of trust between 2 people with very similar goals. Appreciate you taking the time to verify it.
@461 spiritwalker
You are not the only one bud, … im planning a complete read through when I get the book in my hands, but im really loving the theorycrafting that happens here
Also, release is in about 8 hours from now
I don’t think the orders can be broken down that cleanly for example I could see light Weaver’s be very good at engineering they could literally imagine what they want to build and have a perfect 3d model to work from.
I also live for Tuesday’s but it’s also the start of my week so school, then work then a double Thursday and Friday. So it’s a blessing and a curse.
Also think we could hit 500 comments before the next ones up.
@464 fulgriim
Yes you are correct in saying its not that easy to break down the orders like that, however I believe that each order will have a speciality/focus and thats what I am concentrating on.
Each of the orders introduced so far seem to have a particular way that the surges interact with each other and that tends to show in the personality and the oaths of the various orders
Re: function of the orders – I would say the Stonewards are the infantry, rather than the Windrunners.
If you look at the things Taln says in Interlude 7, you should get a pretty good idea of the focus, if you assume that the KR Order follows the skills of the Herald:
That sounds like the engineers to me – the builders, the shapers, the makers, and would reflect the skills of the Willshapers.
Edgedancers are the healers.
Windrunners, apparently are considered the leaders. Perhaps not specifically the generals, or perhaps so, but at least the ones who coordinate and lead the strategy and tactics.
Talenel, known as the one who would pick the most hopeless battles and win them, trained the soldiers. I would therefore posit that the Stonewards are much more likely to be the infantry.
As for the Bondsmiths, I’m not convinced they fit neatly into your suggested outline. Perhaps they are the generals, but with so very few of them, I’d suggest that they are the ones who coordinate the efforts of the Orders in ways that go beyond the actual warfare. It’s worth noting that Ishar is associated with the attributes of “Pious/Guiding” where Jezrien is “Protecting/Leading.”
And… since I seem to have created a double post, I’ll take this opportunity to tell you that there’s another review article coming soon, summarizing what we know about the Knights Radiant.
So… Just a question… whats up with the Aimians??? At least two of them have shown up in the books and both are super strong?? so strong that on edge dancer he said that even one of the heralds knew better than to attack him??
@467/468 wetlandernw
You make a couple of good points there bud, what you say makes a lot of sense, it will be interesting to find out how the orders fit into their roles, and yes, I can see the windrunners being “officers/tactical overview” but they will also be first respondant in most situations.
Thats why I thought the designation of “light infantry/light cavalry” to be most analogous to their order, ie:fast, very mobile, and hard hitting, while being somewhat squishy
EvilMonkey @458:
Your associations of the KR types with roles in a military organization is very interesting. But I think it is incomplete. It does not account for the fact that each radiant controls two surges. Thus, for example, while Edgedancers have Progression (Growth/Regrowth), so do Truthwatchers, and both should be assigned to the medical corps.
The complicating factor here may be that, while each KR has access to 2 surges, the ones we have seen so far appear to have their surges as Major/Minor specializations (for example, Shallan primarily accesses Illumination and rarely uses Transformation). We don’t know whether the specialization is related to the individual KR’s choice (that is, for example, if we meet another Lightweaver he/she may use Transformation most of the time and Illumination only rarely), the choice of the specific spren controlling the nahel bond (that is, for example, if a different Cryptic bonds Elhokar we might find him using mostly Transformation and only occasionally using Illumination), or whether the major/minor surges are the same for each order (that is, for example, all Edgedancers would primarily use Abrasion most of the time and use Progression only occassionally, as we see with Lift). Your list would work only in the third case.
@469 a;ex
Thats a very interesting question, but since the Aimians seem to be made up of a few thousand cremlings I suspect that attacking them would be somewhat pointless(especially with a shardblade)
Can you imagine trying to kill a swarm of bees with a sword? … it would be a similarly pointless endeavour
@472
Yes i guess you’re right but it just seems like they have been given so much space in the books to just be fillers???
and he even told Lift that he fought with the Radiants of the first desolation.
our war is my war, and has been for millennia. Ancient Radiants named me friend and ally before everything went wrong. What wonderful days those were, before the Last Desolation. Days of…honor. Now gone, long gone. ”
— Arclo to Lift
I reaaaaally want to know if anyone else is wondering about this guy and axis??
Even if Adolin doesn’t bond with a spren himself, that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s going to be without powers. Dalinar now has the honorblade that Szeth had been using, and Adolin seems like as good a person to entrust it to as anyone else he’d entertain – assuming he doesn’t just hide it, of course. Maybe the Herald’s will show up eventually to take them back but that probably won’t be for quite a while.
European curse is having to wait half the day for the new chapters. :'(
@453 trimerion `According to Talenel he[Kalak] taught people how to cast bronze, if they had forgotten` – WoR. Kalak is also associated with the attributes of Resolute and Builder. So what of the Willshapers?
@475 jasnah sedai
That makes a lot of sense, as well as the “resolute and builder” kinda embody Navini, …. is she going to be the first willshaper we see?
Also that would fit with the engineer thing I was wondering about
Also I believe OC has already been revealed to us here as TOR themselves, … can you imagine anything more evil than having to wait for the new chapters each week? I know I cant, … 3pm is still so far away
@@@@@ Wetlandernw 467 / Evil Monkey 458 / Trimerion 453:
I found your discussion of the various orders fitting into various military roles very interesting and agree that Windrunners may have a different role. Perhaps windrunners are more tactical level leaders (think modern Captain rank who actually lead men in the grit and grime of battle) while bondsmiths are more strategic level leaders (think DoD/General Officer Level, makes important strategic level decisions and issues guidance but doesn’t really lead men on the battle field).
Also @@@@@ Wetlandernw: I can’t help but try and piece together clues from everything you say knowing that you have already read the book. For example you stating that willshapers seem to be engineers (and you back that up with information we already have), still I think to myself, “stormbrother, I wonder if Alice knows something because she has already read the book, then again I trust her not to give away spoilers so she must not definitively know anything on this topic, so then I can reason that Oathbringer doesn’t discuss willshapers very much (at least not in the sense of them being engineers), or does it? Ahhh I don’t know what to think!” Anyways, I thought you might get a kick out of knowing the torture you beta readers give us (although after reading how much work went into being a beta reader, I suppose you have the right)..
:)
EDIT: Trimerion: I hear you, it doesn’t come out until 5:30 pm my local time.
@475, 476
It will be 9pm my time before I see the new chapters…though I pity those in Australia/New Zealand…probably mid-nite for them!
3pm for me here in South Africa
just over 2 hours more
3 chapter dose followed deep depression. If this isn’t a drug I don’t know what is.
Weekly time check post!
trimerion @463
Well, I am buying TWoK and WoR next month in book format. Then will more than likely get the audiobook version AND the book version of OB in November. I have always loved to read, read aloud to others, and be read aloud to as well, so I use audiobooks and workout while I listen to them or just do chores around the apartment. But for epic story lines, I definitely need the books to keep better track. I already have a folder on both laptops for commenting on this site, to keep track of who I have commented, and I am going to dedicate a big notebook to help keep track of everything better.
I have coffee and I am ready to read! Yay Tuesday!
See you all in the next chapters comments!
Time check
Was thinking 2 days ago, “What if I adjust the date on my laptop? Will the new chapters magically appear?”
And today’s the day! *hits refresh* *refresh* *refresh* *refresh*
*deletes temporary internet files*
*refresh*
Haven’t done any work today as yet. My assignment group is gonna fire me if these chapter get posted late.
Mjosman im in south africa as well, … itching for the new chapters
Time check!
@486 about 40 minutes to go
On the bus, heading to work. :-) It’s 7:46 central here. Thankfully today is looking to be less intense than last week was! Also, definitely aiming for a fifth hunny. :-)
Don’t think we will make the 5th hunny with proper comments, just with fillers like this one
@trimerion re. 472: Shardnet?
We’re so close though! And people do still come and trickle back in even after the next chapter is up so I think we’ll make it :D
Each post has had more comments, so who knows, maybe one day we’ll end up with a tunny ;)
I wonder what the most commented thread has been. The one I can think of that I think did exceed 500 comments (before they turned comments off) was a very controversial post from Tor involving some unpleasantness. At least this is a much happier topic!
@491 How big did the spoiler threads get for the Song of Ice and Fire Read? They might have bounced off the site’s soft limit on the number of comments.
Mmm, yes, those did get big enough that they had to split them up. I forgot about those! Hopefully one day we get a new book and can have one again :)
And now that I think about it, the various Rothfuss reread/theory threads have gotten pretty long (I wish we’d get another one of those too!)
Me and all my friends, we’re all misunderstood…
Now we’re just waiting (waiting)
Waiting for the next freaking chapters to be posted.
https://www.tor.com/2017/09/19/oathbringer-by-brandon-sanderson-chapters-10-12/
@445 What I was thinking was more on the side of a digital interactive map. Think Google Earth but using Roshar :D
@459: I took the time to write a long post in order to better explained how my thoughts worked with respect to the discussion at hand. This thread is meant to be a discussion where thoughts, opinions and speculation are to be challenged. I challenged yours because I disagree with them. You are, of course, free to disagree with me, but I’d rather you chose to do so in a respectful manner and not a detrimental and insulting one. I wish you a good continuity.
On Radiants and Functions: I will advise caution in trying to hard to place-hold Radiants within restrictive functions. Sprens aren’t looking for functions, they are looking for ideas, concepts and a concept can be found into various individuals. For instance, Brandon did say a soldier could become an Elsecaller, providing he manages to exhibit the rational thinking Inksprens are looking for. So while the attributes are more readily found in scholars such as Jasnah, the author clearly stated it wasn’t restricted to them. I also believe mentions were made of one fighting Lightweaver.
I thus do not think it will be as easy as saying “all Edgedancers are healers”, “all Dustbringers are soldiers” and so on.
@497 Look to the oaths to see what spren are looking for. Cultivation spren are looking for those who pay attention to the overlooked and lost. Honor spren are looking for protectors, Kal is a soldier but it could just as easily be a cop or a lawyer or a social worker. Cryptics want those with self-awareness.
As always, we ask that you keep disagreements in the comment threads civil and be respectful of others, even when theories and opinions fail to align. If you feel that someone is being aggressive, dismissive, insulting, or otherwise outside the bounds of the guidelines outlined in our Moderation Policy, please flag the comment and let the moderators step in, if necessary.
Ooh, thanks mod, both for keeping this place clean, and setting me up for the hunny!
I am more worried about Adolin than with Renarin about the murders right now. He murdered Sadeas after all.
I’m curios about Renarin’s KR abilities though. Can he see only in the future or also in the past? Detect lies or truths concealed like Adolin killing Sadeas? How about what he can do with Dalinar? I imagine something where Dalinar is saying, ” It’s so frustrating that we don’t know how the old Knights Radiant works!” then bam! A vision from the Stormfather’s past when Urithiru was in full swing.
Radiant spotting (Radiant hunting?)
I thinks the Windrunner squires should help more in scouting for budding Radiants rather than wandering around Urithiru. Teft was from a family of Envisagers after all and Sigzil can give advise in communicating with Roshar’s different monarchs what with his knowledge about different cultures.
Also, I think that the scout Lyn may be a Radiant. I think she was looking for information on what being a Radiant under Dalinar entails when Shallan caught her looking at her sketchbook. If one is a budding Radiant one would fish information from a known Radiant, right? She may be from a more soldier like Order ( Kelek’s or Taln’s since their orders are not yet represented?) and was disappointed at Shallan’s response because she secretly wanted to be a soldier. I guess being a scout is the closest thing a woman can be in joining Dalinar’s army.
Lirin, as some of you pointed out may be a Radiant. 188. RyuMagoo outlined the possibility nicely. Why didn’t he recognize the Sylblade though? That tell tale glow of a live Shardblade?
Let’s do further Radiant spotting in future chapters…
This is my favorite set at the moment, keep re-reading them.
Kaladin is surelly well developed.
Late post warning!
46@@@@@ Devisor: Kaladin “exploded with Light” after taking the Third Oath because he sucked all the Light out of dozens of lanterns. He can’t generate Stormlight, that’s what makes Lift unique.
182@@@@@goddesssimho: At the end of WoR Shallan meets a Ghostblood, Mraize, in Urithuru. Why would he be the only one?
Could Hesina be one of the Remembers? It would justify the awespren when she sees her son is a Radiant.
@@@@@ 500, Lisamarie: congratulations! A 5th hunny is a very rare treat. :-)
@@@@@504, Carl: is that you Carl? Former author of the SA reread?
Braid_Tug@505: nope, totally different Carl.
OK, I have not read past chapter 9, but I think the murder is assassination ordered by Ialai, beginning a series of killings this way until Adolin feels guilty enough to fess up. Dalinar will have to sac him “for the good of Roshar” or something, I don’t know.
I’m here way later than everyone else. Chapters 19-21 are due in a few hours but I have to comment on a few things.
First , Shallan grew up in a home with domestic abuse. That makes people very good at reading others. Renarin is on the autism spectrum. He likely has problems reading social cues and doesn’t present normal social cues. I think that is why she finds him creepy. He doesn’t read like a normal person.
Renarin’s reaction to Adolin’s statement could be one of two things and I can’t decide which. First, maybe because of some truthwatcher power his deception sounds different and he knows it’s not the truth. Second, and more likely, being on the spectrum has made him an expert at reading a brother he idolizes. I’m sure Renarin has seen every way Adolin has acted and this is unique.
Kaladin and Lirin have different ideas how to treat an injury. I don’t believe it’s because Lirin is a proto radient. It’s because Kaladin is a battlefield surgeon. His focus is on quickly saving a life and stabilizing a patient so he can move on to the next injured person. He has been proving immediate lifesaving treatment for battlefield injuries with limited resources. Lirin is a civilian surgeon, he wants to make sure his patient makes a full recovery. They go about assessing treatment very differently. It doesn’t mean Lirin has been using stormlight to heal.
It’s been covered already but a half lashing will make one weightless. Kaladin has a lot of room to grow in becoming efficient in his lashings. Kaladin used two lashings for that where Szeth used a half lashing.
Finally some pure speculation. I don’t know if Eshonai has shown up yet in later chapters, but she did fall during a high storm. I think the next time we see her she will no longer be in stormform.
That line at the end of 7 seems derived from the film adaption of The Two Towers, “Let’s hunt some orc.”
It’s awesome regardless.
This is very late. But I was going through The Way of Kings reread and came across Kaladin’s flashback chapter when Roshone first becomes Hearthstone’s citylord.
**
Lirin stepped forward, raising a hand. “Brightlord. Was your trip pleasant? Please, can we show you the town?”
“What is your name?”
“Lirin, Brightlord. Hearthstone’s surgeon.”
“Ah,” Roshone said. “You’re the one who let old Wistiow die.” The brightlord’s expression darkened. “In a way, it’s your fault I’m stuck in this pitiful, miserable quarter of the kingdom.”
**
It’s admirable that Laral will publicly stand by her husband, but Roshone was a total punk, right from the start.
@56 Kaladin is not a teenager
‘with a start, he realized he had passed his 20th birthday during his time as a bridgeman’ WoR
@KaladinFan1, the Rosharan year is shorter than Earth’s. By our chronology he’s a teenager. Of course he isn’t a member of our species exactly, either.